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To people who don't seem to believe Bruce Lee is the real deal..

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  • Muse: To think. Amuse: to cease to think. DVD amusement: to allow a DVD to do your brain's job for you... Some culture we live in...

    In other words, Lucid, your testimony about what you saw your instructor do would have to act as someone else's video clip. It would then be a matter of verifying your credibility as a witness (insert jubaji remark here) that of others whose credibility was proven sound and adding to that other means of proving Lee's ability.

    Example of a credible witness who wasn't even there! Why then is this person a credible witness? He is a PROVEN fighter. Someone who DOES KNOW a thing or two about that. One of their KNOWN practices, is that of studying other fighter's movement, body structure, etc., for what it says about an opponent's possible skills, attributes, weakenesses, etc. Of course, that's only a part of winning.

    Check out what this fighter, PROVEN THE WORLD OVER, has to say about Lee, and whom he lumps Lee in with, in light of the question asked of him.

    MMAToday: Are there any fighters you look up to now?
    TO [Tito Ortiz]: Not anyone now currently, but I look at people who put it all together like Ali, Bruce Lee 30 years ago. George St. Pierre and BJ are great fighters. I cant respect anyone in my weight class anymore because I get caught up in watching them and being in awe instead of stomping on them, which is what I need to be doing.



    Was that on a UFC site - the very venue so many raised on mind-numbing, wouldn't know how to clearly think a thing through any other way, DVDs, claim Lee would have been creamed in? Was that statement made by an actual UFC top dog! Did he say NOT ANYONE NOW CURRENTLY and then lump George St. Pierre and BJ [Peen, who does remind one of Lee] in with Lee? Must be fixed, hunh?

    Here's one I borrowed from someone else:

    Balck Belt Magazine: What’s your favorite martial arts movie?
    Frank Shamrock: It would have to be Enter the Dragon. The philosophy, ideas and energy of it tell a lot about life. It’s truth, and that’s why it’s always going to be there. You see the truth. There may be a lot of story and [filler], but there’s a big piece of truth you can’t run away from.



    Bottom line: Those who so easliy dismiss Lee on THEIR perceived strength of the witness of video clips not only betray their actual ignorance of other means of credible proof used for decades now by law enforcement, courts of law, archeology, ad infinitum, but do so at the expense of what contribution that aspect of Lee's legacy that matters in this regard could contribute to their own martial growth.

    Comment


    • Liberty... AWESOME...

      I seriously think no one says it better than you.. at least IMO.

      Thanks.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by lucidmist View Post
        Liberty... AWESOME...

        I seriously think no one says it better than you.. at least IMO.

        Thanks.
        Thanks for the compliment. Then again, you might not feel the same after this one.

        Thus far, in my own look at Lee's possibly true skills as a martial artist, I've shared that considered the evidence of Credible Eyewitnesses - people like Inosanto, or Kimura, for example. People proven over time to be of unquestionable integrity.

        In the above post I looked at the testimony of Expert Witnessess people proven to know what the heck they're talking about.

        I'm actually compiling a list of types of Credible Evidences, here's another - the Witness of Logic, it's a toughy to read to read, though.

        I'm a film student. Can't watch a film without looking at lighting, placement of actors, genre, and so forth.

        As I consider Lee in his films, my conclusion is that he is a charismatic actor. Like Elvis was in his films. No acting talent of any real depth, just charisma.

        Or like Farrah and her two "faucets," Kate Jackson, and Jacklyn Smith were on the 70's TV show, "Charlies Angels." Charisma all over the place but no real acting talent. Unlike Marlyn Monroe, Brad Pitt, et al, who are also very charismatic while at the same time hugely talented.

        Anyway, when not fighting, or when stopped, Lee would grimace - make faces to show anger, agitation, and oo forth. No real "emotional content," to borrow his phrase. Suposedly he and Coburn woulkd debate this when Coburn would try to help him and pint it out.

        He's really a bad actor when not kicking butt - "Longstreet" doesn't count because, as he himself said in "The Lost Interview," he was just being himself.

        What's left is that he looks as credible as an absolutely astounding fighting machine in his movies, not because he was some kind of genius, legendary master actor's actor, Robert DeNiro playing a boxer ("Raging Bull"), but because he was one bad s.o.b., as Tito too must've recognized just from the way the man was built - for fighting; moved - like a world class prize fighter; choreographed - like someone who knows something about the true energy, rhythym, craziness and psychology of a real fight.

        Like those looks in "Enter," in his underground battlle with Han's guards. There are times where he looks (when fighting)as if he's thinking - "Holy Crap - what've I gotten myself into!" The man obviously had had that experience! As has anyone who's "been there."

        Or that battle scene with Norris, in "Way" - says it all! In the slow motion parts, he moves like some wild lion engaged in getting at it's prey!

        It's the same with all his flms but for "Game" which I've not cared for, as it's largely mising all that (after all, it's mostly outtakes, etc. more on this angle though, some other time)

        Admitedly, this piece is in rough form, but it was on my mind.

        By the way, what do you think of what Davis Miller has to say about Lee's filmed workout on a heavy bag. Myself, I completely disagreed with him on that one - based on what I was looking at it with. Let me know... hope this one wasn't as tough to read as I fear...

        Comment


        • Originally posted by lucidmist View Post
          hey bro, your comments are great. i believe everyone has stuff to offer, and even masters learn from students sometimes. unfortunately, i don't have much to be tapped into... also tapping into others here. are you thinking of competing someday?

          anyway, thanks for sharing so much, eye opener!
          Yeah, competition is something I wouldn't mind doing some day. Outside of age my lifestyle and dedication hasn't been something very conducive to becoming a competitive athlete.

          First and foremost my purpose for training is self-protection, to improve my confidence, and perhaps one day to be able to teach or pass on some of what I know.

          But I'm something of a competitive person so there is some desire in me for one or two MMA fights in the future maybe.

          Comment


          • I just feel like venting my frustrations about Bruce Lee Detractors. Assuming what you say is 200% true:

            -Bruce Lee's Physique -- Digital Makeover
            -Bruce Lee's Feats -- Rumours
            -Bruce Lee's Demonstrations -- Staged with rigs or like pre-acted or fixed
            -Bruce Lee in a fight -- Staged and just to gain publicity
            -Bruce Lee on Film -- just an actor who had the talent to make his moves look legit for a short period.
            -Bruce Lee's books -- Just pure propaganda
            -Bruce Lee vs Ali -- Ali would have sent Bruce to the next galaxy, and Bruce would hardly touched Ali as his moves were too cinematic and Bruce would NEVER NEVER have a chance in a REAL Fight.
            -Bruce Lee's Death -- On an overdose of drugs to make his body look good, while recovering from a hair removal surgery, got hit by a dozen ninjas and hitmen with the death touch and it got activated while he was having a hot romp with Betty Ting Pei, where she gave him an aspirin instead of a contraceptive pill-for-men. As a result it was too much for him and his brain swelled and he died.

            Ok now have I covered all the 'facts - as stated by detractors'? If not add a few.

            ***SHARKS***

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Liberty View Post
              Thanks for the compliment. Then again, you might not feel the same after this one.

              Thus far, in my own look at Lee's possibly true skills as a martial artist, I've shared that considered the evidence of Credible Eyewitnesses - people like Inosanto, or Kimura, for example. People proven over time to be of unquestionable integrity.

              In the above post I looked at the testimony of Expert Witnessess people proven to know what the heck they're talking about.

              I'm actually compiling a list of types of Credible Evidences, here's another - the Witness of Logic, it's a toughy to read to read, though.

              I'm a film student. Can't watch a film without looking at lighting, placement of actors, genre, and so forth.

              As I consider Lee in his films, my conclusion is that he is a charismatic actor. Like Elvis was in his films. No acting talent of any real depth, just charisma.

              Or like Farrah and her two "faucets," Kate Jackson, and Jacklyn Smith were on the 70's TV show, "Charlies Angels." Charisma all over the place but no real acting talent. Unlike Marlyn Monroe, Brad Pitt, et al, who are also very charismatic while at the same time hugely talented.

              Anyway, when not fighting, or when stopped, Lee would grimace - make faces to show anger, agitation, and oo forth. No real "emotional content," to borrow his phrase. Suposedly he and Coburn woulkd debate this when Coburn would try to help him and pint it out.

              He's really a bad actor when not kicking butt - "Longstreet" doesn't count because, as he himself said in "The Lost Interview," he was just being himself.

              What's left is that he looks as credible as an absolutely astounding fighting machine in his movies, not because he was some kind of genius, legendary master actor's actor, Robert DeNiro playing a boxer ("Raging Bull"), but because he was one bad s.o.b., as Tito too must've recognized just from the way the man was built - for fighting; moved - like a world class prize fighter; choreographed - like someone who knows something about the true energy, rhythym, craziness and psychology of a real fight.

              Like those looks in "Enter," in his underground battlle with Han's guards. There are times where he looks (when fighting)as if he's thinking - "Holy Crap - what've I gotten myself into!" The man obviously had had that experience! As has anyone who's "been there."

              Or that battle scene with Norris, in "Way" - says it all! In the slow motion parts, he moves like some wild lion engaged in getting at it's prey!

              It's the same with all his flms but for "Game" which I've not cared for, as it's largely mising all that (after all, it's mostly outtakes, etc. more on this angle though, some other time)

              Admitedly, this piece is in rough form, but it was on my mind.

              By the way, what do you think of what Davis Miller has to say about Lee's filmed workout on a heavy bag. Myself, I completely disagreed with him on that one - based on what I was looking at it with. Let me know... hope this one wasn't as tough to read as I fear...
              hey man, ha, don't worry, i really appreciate your comments because you write constructive stuff. i mean, this IS supposed to be a forum for discussion and debate, for everyone to share proper views and opinions.

              ok, i totally share your views about his acting. i think it'd sicken my stomach to see him in a romantic scene. imagine him kissing a lady lead. yeech. and honestly, even the fight choreographies weren't great. plenty of wasted moves, unrealistic sequences and why do all the gangs always attack one person at a time?? ;P

              hmm.. well, i've never found anything wrong with the way bruce lee worked with the heavy bag.. but i'm no expert. just that i work on it pretty much the same way. although they say it's more like a push, it's actually cos we put our entire hip and arm behind the punch. it does have a pushing effect, but that does add on to the power of the punch. i've never done western boxing, so i can't comment on that.. :P

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Knuckles&Knees View Post
                Yeah, competition is something I wouldn't mind doing some day. Outside of age my lifestyle and dedication hasn't been something very conducive to becoming a competitive athlete.

                First and foremost my purpose for training is self-protection, to improve my confidence, and perhaps one day to be able to teach or pass on some of what I know.

                But I'm something of a competitive person so there is some desire in me for one or two MMA fights in the future maybe.
                ha, yeah, if you ever join a competition, share it!

                i guess it does mark some sort of accomplishment to have done it.. i could never have the discipline to do it, even IF i ever achieve the skill to. my diet, insomnia, lifestyle in general, bad bad bad. :P

                Comment


                • Originally posted by mano012sg View Post
                  -Bruce Lee's Death -- On an overdose of drugs to make his body look good, while recovering from a hair removal surgery, got hit by a dozen ninjas and hitmen with the death touch and it got activated while he was having a hot romp with Betty Ting Pei, where she gave him an aspirin instead of a contraceptive pill-for-men. As a result it was too much for him and his brain swelled and he died.

                  Ok now have I covered all the 'facts - as stated by detractors'? If not add a few.

                  ***SHARKS***
                  LOL. Nice..

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by lucidmist View Post
                    LOL. Nice..
                    yeah man...I had studied physiology and some other areas relating to the human body and mind ...and then being introduced martial arts followed by an introduction to Bruce Lee and only a year later being actually taken interest in his capabilities as a martial artist as I got interested in improving on the martial arts I've been practicing. Its interesting for me coz...I always experimenting with techniques only after that reading that Bruce had done those and brought it to the next level...which at the point in practice is entirely conceivable. Which is why I totally believe...NO...understand how he can do all these things.

                    I use Bruce as a benchmark for my own exercise and martial arts (actually just 1 martial art) practice as a guidepost. And in trying to find and experiment in my own way....surprisingly i find that I am beginning to understand what JKD is about.

                    So when I read detractors here talk all that crap and even claim they are martial artists....I really can't understand it. If I who have just studied 1 martial art and am seeing its various dimensions (hard and soft and other dimensions) can understand his way, I can really see how powerful Bruce, , who founded his concept of JKD, could really be, and how much he would have needed to control himself for film.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mano012sg View Post
                      yeah man...I had studied physiology and some other areas relating to the human body and mind ...and then being introduced martial arts followed by an introduction to Bruce Lee and only a year later being actually taken interest in his capabilities as a martial artist as I got interested in improving on the martial arts I've been practicing. Its interesting for me coz...I always experimenting with techniques only after that reading that Bruce had done those and brought it to the next level...which at the point in practice is entirely conceivable. Which is why I totally believe...NO...understand how he can do all these things.

                      I use Bruce as a benchmark for my own exercise and martial arts (actually just 1 martial art) practice as a guidepost. And in trying to find and experiment in my own way....surprisingly i find that I am beginning to understand what JKD is about.

                      So when I read detractors here talk all that crap and even claim they are martial artists....I really can't understand it. If I who have just studied 1 martial art and am seeing its various dimensions (hard and soft and other dimensions) can understand his way, I can really see how powerful Bruce, , who founded his concept of JKD, could really be, and how much he would have needed to control himself for film.
                      would you say it is necessary for people to understand bruce lee to be a good martial artist?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by mano012sg View Post
                        yeah man...I had studied physiology and some other areas relating to the human body and mind ...and then being introduced martial arts followed by an introduction to Bruce Lee and only a year later being actually taken interest in his capabilities as a martial artist as I got interested in improving on the martial arts I've been practicing. Its interesting for me coz...I always experimenting with techniques only after that reading that Bruce had done those and brought it to the next level...which at the point in practice is entirely conceivable. Which is why I totally believe...NO...understand how he can do all these things.

                        I use Bruce as a benchmark for my own exercise and martial arts (actually just 1 martial art) practice as a guidepost. And in trying to find and experiment in my own way....surprisingly i find that I am beginning to understand what JKD is about.

                        So when I read detractors here talk all that crap and even claim they are martial artists....I really can't understand it. If I who have just studied 1 martial art and am seeing its various dimensions (hard and soft and other dimensions) can understand his way, I can really see how powerful Bruce, , who founded his concept of JKD, could really be, and how much he would have needed to control himself for film.
                        Yeah man.. well, let's say even if I was someone who could beat Bruce Lee (IF), I wouldn't automatically put him down as someone who couldn't fight. I mean, if a kid's punch in the right places could cause a twinge, imagine a punch from someone like Bruce Lee.

                        Also, no one is unbeatable.. let's say Ali could beat him once, it may not necessarily mean Ali can beat him always, and that one fight can determine who's the better of the two.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by lucidmist View Post
                          Yeah man.. well, let's say even if I was someone who could beat Bruce Lee (IF), I wouldn't automatically put him down as someone who couldn't fight. I mean, if a kid's punch in the right places could cause a twinge, imagine a punch from someone like Bruce Lee.

                          Also, no one is unbeatable.. let's say Ali could beat him once, it may not necessarily mean Ali can beat him always, and that one fight can determine who's the better of the two.
                          I frankly don't see Ali beating Bruce Lee.

                          Ali was fast for a *heavy weight* but he was no Sugar Ray Leonard or Floyd Mayweather (sp?). Mike Tyson was one of the fastest punching heavy weights of all time - not to mention a very hard hitter. Ali was a great fighter but I personally think his hype is largely due to the era of change in which he came up in, his own incredible personality, and the fact that Baby Boomers are still around to keep talking about him. Sugar Ray Robinson was *probably* the best boxer of all time - he had over a hundred fights (I think Ali only had around 30 or 40). Robinson also had great form in the ring - timeless kind of form.

                          Bruce was a small man but he had power in his punches and kicks that might very well have been on par with heavy weights - and that right there is astonishing.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Knuckles&Knees View Post
                            Bruce was a small man but he had power in his punches and kicks that might very well have been on par with heavy weights - and that right there is astonishing.
                            No doubt about it man.. I'm sure many of us have sparred or fought with boxers and the fight could've gone either way. That is why I don't automatically assume Bruce would lose to Ali.

                            However, there were instances, upon reflection, that I know for sure had I been a millisecond slower or made a mistake of not shifting backwards enough, I would've been dropped by the single punch.

                            What I'm trying to say is, although I believe Bruce stood a higher chance against Ali, I still think the fight could go either way. Ali's experienced, if Bruce slowed even a single bit or made one mistake, Ali would take it.

                            Hmm. What do you think of a fight between Tyson and Bruce? Or Sugar Ray?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Knuckles&Knees View Post
                              I frankly don't see Ali beating Bruce Lee.

                              Ali was fast for a *heavy weight* but he was no Sugar Ray Leonard or Floyd Mayweather (sp?). Mike Tyson was one of the fastest punching heavy weights of all time - not to mention a very hard hitter. Ali was a great fighter but I personally think his hype is largely due to the era of change in which he came up in, his own incredible personality, and the fact that Baby Boomers are still around to keep talking about him. Sugar Ray Robinson was *probably* the best boxer of all time - he had over a hundred fights (I think Ali only had around 30 or 40). Robinson also had great form in the ring - timeless kind of form.

                              Bruce was a small man but he had power in his punches and kicks that might very well have been on par with heavy weights - and that right there is astonishing.
                              Ali had 61 fights. 56W-37KO-5L

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by lucidmist View Post
                                Hmm. What do you think of a fight between Tyson and Bruce? Or Sugar Ray?
                                Not much at this point. Too much speculation, crossing even the boundaries of style/art.

                                Comment

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