Sparring

[adeano]

Interesting thread with some well put posts. nice.

i would just like to add one thing. of course there is sparring a little easy, then go a little harder and finally throw on some gear and go quite hard.

But also there is drilling. drilling can focus on a technique or counter or two and isolate them for further learning. Like sparring, drilling can be done slowly and built up to almost full on but it isolates a certain technique or tactic.

For example take downs. one partner has boxing gloves on and his goal is to punch the other guy. the other guy has a mouth guard in with no gloves and his goal is to take the puncher down and secure a position. This drill is primarily for the guy doing the takedown. The other guy can only punch and sprawl. Of course they both move around as in sparring utilising timing and distance and such things. but it isolates a set of movements.

So yeah, sparring is essential but drilling is perhaps more important to polish up on specific skills. Also, some drills can be quite like sparring depending on the parameters set.

It is these more modern training methods which use 'aliveness' to quote Matt Thornton which is what makes MMA so effective. 80% or so of training should be 'alive'. There is nothing wrong with other systems such as JKD schools and others implementing them into their own stuff. Actually this is happening and is only to be encouraged.

[Joe Hubbard]

but Joe its hard to do that shit against a well trained MMA guy, the training they do means you cant easily pull that stuff off. And besides its not like you need training to do most of that.
most of those you can do anyway with no training at all.
And stuff like lee murray, i know lee, he was off his face when that happened. Its not really relevant or a fair comparison. Things go wrong sometiems for sure but i think most MMA guys are in a better position than most JKD guys.
JKD is largely untested, MMA is tested.

Are you serious? Eye gouging and biting properly contrary to popular belief does take skill and most MMA guys would be open for these attacks. The use of the knife, stick and/or gun also takes skill and most MMA guys would not be able to counter this by a skilled practitioner. All you have to do is work some positional drills on the ground to validate this. From side-control you see all the time various MMA guys leaving themselves open to such attacks. Do this drill. Adopt top position side-control. Just secure the position. Now have the guy on the bottom try to bite you and in turn you defend. Just drill this for a while. Then have him try to attack you in the eyes with his left hand and continue to defend. Bear in mind that at this stage of the drill you can only defend by avoidance while holding that top position side-control. Now have him attack you with his left knee, you defend. Then the right knee and finally the right arm. You can wear eye goggles for the eye bit, but really there is a little simulating here, especially for the biting. Now repeat the same drill, but add finish attacks at each phase of the drill. Then add weapons for your opponent to draw and then from arms reach where the opponent picks up something to attack you with. So many are susceptible to this because the bulk of their training is rolling with submissions. Then try clinch drills with weapons. Intrinsically the problem comes from thinking that in the street you are going to fight like you do in the ring. I remember in Ultimate Fighter 4 (I think) where the some of the house mates got into a fight on the patio. One guy tries to do a flying triangle and the other guy slams him on the pavement. Boom! Fight over.

What you speak of, if you are serious, is from a consentual match fight where both parties agree to fight. This is what we call The Myth of the Duel:

http://www.mgselfdefense.com/Myth_of_the_Duel.pdf

From there we have The Myth of the First Event. What happened first! Did I slam a telephone off your head? Did I throw a hot cup of coffee in your face? The first event is crucial. There’s an old martial arts adage: “First break the guy’s nose and then any Judo throw will work.”

Out

Joe

[Tant01]

Mostly true...

...
...


...From there we have The Myth of the First Event. What happened first! Did I slam a telephone off your head? Did I throw a hot cup of coffee in your face? The first event is crucial. There’s an old martial arts adage: “First break the guy’s nose and then any Judo throw will work.”
Out

Joe

Hehehea... THAT is OLD! LOL

[Joe Hubbard]

Yep, that's what I said, it's an old martial arts adage. Knew you would like that one Tanto.

Out

Joe

[Ghost]

i dont think most guys would stand a chance of achieving a bite or eye gouge on an MMA fighters. perhaps they could but most dont have their conditioning and ability and the fight would be over by then.
I think the biggest misconception is that MMA guys dont think of these things.
Point taken on knives/guns i dont disagree.
There is no way of knowing who has what.

I really dont think eye gouges and biting takes anything more than common sense.
You mention a lot of rules, but most of them wont put anyone out of their comfort zone.
Im a thai boxer myself, im certain not held back in a street fight but not having a corner that can throw in the towel and not having a ref. My point is that a lot of those points you raise wont make a ring fighter thing, wow what do i do now.

Examples of Lee etc getting stabbed are unfair, he was waited for outside and they jumped him, he was drunk and didnt see it coming, no one can avoid that other than by not being a twat and not getting drunk. Nothing to do with knife defense.

[Guest]

Sadly this has lapsed, perhaps inevitably, into sport vs street. So, lets go there:

In my opinion, 90% of your base should be in Combat Athletics. Solid Thai, solid Boxing and solid Clinch and Ground. This develops all the functional attributes you need, a sound game in all ranges, plus great conditioning, aggression, intelligent strategy, and above all, as Ghost rightly says - its is TESTED.

Once you have that base as an athlete and a fighter, then adding a small core of self protection training involving weapons, multiple opponents and whatever street specific techniques you care to list out - is simple. In all of my teaching experience, it is far more effective to take a conditioned, tested, athlete and simply add the SP material, it works just fine for him or her.

An important caveat - this is my approach if teaching a civilian who is a recreational martial artist. When teaching Police, Military, Security etc then the blend is completely reversed, and 90% if not 100% is about Protection Specifics. However, for a guy on the street who I class myself as, I want 90% of my training to a healthy, positive, athletic endeavour where I am constantly performing in a safe but combative environment. The 10% of SP work is always there an never goes away, but I just don't feel the need to roll around biting people's faces anymore, I'm kind of past all that.

For me it all comes back to who the student is, why they are there, and what they need. The point of view I am expressing here is based on one of the many million regular martial artists who just want to reach the best level they can. I don't believe the road to doing that is based on looking at what the rules say you can't do and using that as a base for your art. Look at what the rules say you can do, spend most of your time being shit hot at that, then just learn to break 'em as and when you need to. I think that makes a good, all round martial artist.

And yes, I have done hubud with Rick Young, and it was first rate. However, when I get to stand in front of him for an hour of his time, you can bet your arse we don't do hubud. That's kind of my point.

[fire cobra]

Sadly this has lapsed, perhaps inevitably, into sport vs street. So, lets go there:

In my opinion, 90% of your base should be in Combat Athletics. Solid Thai, solid Boxing and solid Clinch and Ground. This develops all the functional attributes you need, a sound game in all ranges, plus great conditioning, aggression, intelligent strategy, and above all, as Ghost rightly says - its is TESTED.

Once you have that base as an athlete and a fighter, then adding a small core of self protection training involving weapons, multiple opponents and whatever street specific techniques you care to list out - is simple. In all of my teaching experience, it is far more effective to take a conditioned, tested, athlete and simply add the SP material, it works just fine for him or her.

An important caveat - this is my approach if teaching a civilian who is a recreational martial artist. When teaching Police, Military, Security etc then the blend is completely reversed, and 90% if not 100% is about Protection Specifics. However, for a guy on the street who I class myself as, I want 90% of my training to a healthy, positive, athletic endeavour where I am constantly performing in a safe but combative environment. The 10% of SP work is always there an never goes away, but I just don't feel the need to roll around biting people's faces anymore, I'm kind of past all that.

For me it all comes back to who the student is, why they are there, and what they need. The point of view I am expressing here is based on one of the many million regular martial artists who just want to reach the best level they can. I don't believe the road to doing that is based on looking at what the rules say you can't do and using that as a base for your art. Look at what the rules say you can do, spend most of your time being shit hot at that, then just learn to break 'em as and when you need to. I think that makes a good, all round martial artist.

And yes, I have done hubud with Rick Young, and it was first rate. However, when I get to stand in front of him for an hour of his time, you can bet your arse we don't do hubud. That's kind of my point.

I love absolutly 100% love muay Thai and i love Plam(clinching) but the bite beats it every time if not expected,bite the nose,ear,cheek,lips etc,if some one really determined wants to bite your nose off then he probably will(Bruce Lee).

[fire cobra]

Sorry Michael i didnt mean to put my last post on the bottom of your post,it was adressed in general not in reply to your post bro.

[Ghost]

I love absolutly 100% love muay Thai and i love Plam(clinching) but the bite beats it every time if not expected,bite the nose,ear,cheek,lips etc,if some one really determined wants to bite your nose off then he probably will(Bruce Lee).

but you are aware of this too and can do it as well.

[Guest]

I love absolutly 100% love muay Thai and i love Plam(clinching) but the bite beats it every time

Just so I am clear - The bite beats footwork, movement, kicks, punches, knees, elbows, clinch, grappling, speed, stength, conditioning, skill, and intellect?

Its beats that, every time? Wow, wish I had known that 17 years ago, could have saved a lot of time and just gone to the dentist.

Strange thing though, there's no bite marks on me.

Guess I just got lucky.

[Ghost]

Just so I am clear - The bite beats footwork, movement, kicks, punches, knees, elbows, clinch, grappling, speed, stength, conditioning, skill, and intellect?

Its beats that, every time? Wow, wish I had known that 17 years ago, could have saved a lot of time and just gone to the dentist.

Strange thing though, there's no bite marks on me.

Guess I just got lucky.

yeah the whole point of clinch is control of your opponent.
If you are winning the clinch, which id assume a thai boxer would on average against your average street fighter, then a bite isnt possible, for a bite to be possible youd have to be in an extended grapple where control shifts between the two of you.
(i know you know this im just saying)
A proper clinch position means you have your arms around their neck and this allows you to keep them out or pull them in.
Assuming you are throwing knees and a few elbows off this it is unlikely anyone would bite, also if you felt someone trying to get towards you for a bite youd simply stop them.
The ideal clinch position keeps your opponent at a slight distance with you having full control of their head and neck area, this should prevent bites etc.
On top of this you have to remember that if you are dominant in the clinch you will be wrenching them around all over the place to **** up their balance and stop any defense they may offer.
There is nothing stopping you from biting if you want to, though i wouldnt personally.

Id like to add, i think there is far too much emphasis placed on the moves that are banned in the ring. Yes they are banned because IF they were allowed they would be too nasty or messy. This doesnt automatically mean they are the answer to fighting a ring fighter.
I think that its a cop out to assume that because a boxer doesnt bite in the ring that to bite is the way to fight a boxer, or a headbutt or an eyegouge.
These are harder blows to land. You will also be going against someone that trains their staple of boxing/thaiboxing/bjj etc under extreme pressure, and all you have in resistance is a bite, a headbutt and an eye gouge.
**** that, i know which guy id rather be, simply cos i know very well who would win.

You HAVE to be able to match them on their main game before you even think abotu winning by a bite or an eyegouge etc. otherwise you simply wont get there.

[Tant01]

How many times have you seen or been poked?

i dont think most guys would stand a chance of achieving a bite or eye gouge on an MMA fighters. perhaps they could but most dont have their conditioning and ability and the fight would be over by then.
............

WTF??? It happens... (By accident) by design or by mistake eyes get poked.

[Tant01]

Bring me your five best fighters...

...
You HAVE to be able to match them on their main game before you even think abotu winning by a bite or an eyegouge etc. otherwise you simply wont get there.

And a box of ammo...


If they get guns I want grenades! LOL

[Tant01]

Sparring is a progressive game. The "steps" have been listed well enough... How does average Joe Blow defend himself from the (Rogue) MMA fighter? Thai Fighter?

Do I need to know his game and be BETTER at it than he is or are there OTHER methods I could learn to dominate or subdue the MIGHTY MMA man?


Thanks guys...

[Guest]

WTF??? It happens... (By accident) by design or by mistake eyes get poked.

Show me the stats on how many MMA fights have ended by eye poke, and compare them to how many MMA fights end with knock out or submission?

Show me how many street fights you have seen or experienced that end by an eye poke or a bite, compared to how many where the guy knocks the other guy the f#ck out or slams him into the concrete?

The street argument always wants to play the exception to the rule. Why? because its far harder to evidence and prove, which provides them with the back door that they need.

I know a guy once who did a marathon in a wheelchair, and he did great. But you know what? He was beaten by 60,00 other people who ran it on their legs.