Sparring

[Ghost]

Sparring is a progressive game. The "steps" have been listed well enough... How does average Joe Blow defend himself from the (Rogue) MMA fighter? Thai Fighter?

Do I need to know his game and be BETTER at it than he is or are there OTHER methods I could learn to dominate or subdue the MIGHTY MMA man?


Thanks guys...

if you are talking unarmed vs unarmed then yes, you would have to be able to beat him at his game. bites and eye gouges wont work if he is way ahead with his game.

MMA arsenal is enormous. You cant expect to beat a guy who has 1000+ techniques totally nailed and drilled to death and in peak phyiscal condition and is constantly going against equally skilled opponents, with a handful of techniques. You have to be able to match his game as well if you hope to apply them.

I havent seen any techniques listed that would put an MMA guy out of joint. The list provided earlier mainly revolved around ring rules with a large assumption that as soon as the rules are removed the MMA fighter is a fish out of water. Its simply not so. the game changes slightly but everything that WAS allowed is still valid. making the mental jump to no rules is hardly a big leap, imo.

[Joe Hubbard]

Let me start this off by stating for the record that I subscribe to all good combat athleticism as a staple. I am in no way criticizing MMA as a sport and I endorse many of its training methods. Not dissimilar are my views on generic kickboxing. In fact, these very same debates existed back in the day when Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis and Benny the Jet were all the rage and household names due to the vast popularity of that particular contact sport. Kickboxing was also “tested” as has been pointed out in reference to MMA today.

When the UFC first started, it is widely known that Rorion handpicked specific people for Royce to beat. So for the first incarnation of the UFC, masses of people declared that BJJ was a street credible magic bullet art that could beat any other system hands down. So much so, that sadly today, BJJ is a large part of the US Army Combatives program??? But, real statistics on the battlefield proves hands down that BJJ is next to useless as a combat battlefield system. As MMA has evolved now people have jumped on that bus, boldly stating that “It has been tested.” The interesting part of this statement is that it is based on two opponents who have both trained in the same or similar training regimes, who have both trained vigorously for 6 to 8 weeks in preparation for a concentual sport match fight. The other interesting part here about the “testing” part is that one guy usually loses; but hang on a minute- they are both MMA guys! So what are you saying? Are you saying that MMA has been tested successful? Against what? I’ll tell you. Against another single opponent who is of the same weight class and is abiding within the framework of a given set of rules with virtually no clothes on and fighting on soft surfaces.

I’m sorry Michael if I have transmuted this thread to sport vs. street topic. I am just trying to point out that there is no panacea formula for fighting. The problem is that most people want it that way; in other words- they want to have a way. JKD was always about using No Way as a Way. How can a fighter be complete without knowledge of weapons or fighting multiples? How is that so simple to learn? Hell, Vunak himself, as you know well, who is one of the most accomplished BJJ guys I have rolled with, has stated numerous times that the biting structure was implemented to circumvent a fighter who is beating you; it’s a survival tool, not a visceral go to tactic. Now this brings us to another part of this debate- who are you fighting?

Let’s take a look at this so we’re all on the same page. Whenever I enter into any of these debates, it seems that people are visualizing being in a fight with Randy Couture or Chuck Lidell. Why do people always do that? If you had the misfortune to meet either of these guys in a dark ally, then best of luck and I hope you have a good life insurance policy. The same goes with knife defense. So many create a box that every time you are faced with a knife attacker, it is going to be Dan Inosanto on a few too many cups of coffee. The “testing” or real statistics prove that people have fought and been successful against knife attackers many times. Hock said to me once, “A fighting system should not be judged by its best or worst guy, it should be judged by its average guy.” Interesting statement. So when I am hearing that no MMA practitioner will ever be susceptible to an eye gouge, a bite, dirty tricks, weapon attacks or overcome by multiples, this is unequivocally not the case. And the criminal justice statistics prove it in the USA and in the UK. This was my point of bringing up the Lee Murray incident. Nothing against Lee, he is a world class fighter, but you yourself Ghost, stated that he was caught unaware and there was more than one. That’s my point. I could of easily used Carlos Newton as an example as well; he was stabbed in a bar fight in Canada. Renzo Gracie also came unstuck when someone pulled a knife on him in New York. Mike Tyson broke his hand in a street fight, but how many martial artists, and this includes MMA guys, practice with gloves and refuse to accept that most will break their hands in a street fight if they punch. I will defy anybody who says that they will instantly transpose their closed fist strikes to open handed strikes when faced with a sudden attack in the heat of the moment. Like anything, you have to put in the flight time or it won’t be there when you need it most.

What I also perceive from some of the comments is that the guy who is choosing to use eye gouges or bites or any other dirty tricks (as smaller part of a greater whole) is some out of shape, non-trained guy who doesn’t know how to circumvent the MMAers game. To me, that is more of a JKD mindset- how do I circumvent that particular game?

To finish this off, Michael I know you are past the hubud stage, but my point was somebody who is climbing that same mountain may need that same training drill to get him where he needs to be. Don’t deny that bullet to your student’s arsenal just because you have grown beyond that point. When it is all said and done, to effectively defend yourself you really only need about six tricks to survive. The thing you have to remember is in the end, everybody’s six tricks are different- unique to themselves. When you are charged with the responsibility as a teacher, you have to be able to figure out how to get your students to discover their very own unique six tricks.

Out

Joe

[TTEscrima]

Nice post! It's great to see others beginning to point out that the MMA format in Military combatives turned out to be unsatisfactory.

[fire cobra]

but you are aware of this too and can do it as well.

Yeah Ghost i agree i could bite to,if biting was allowed in Muay Thai there wouldnt be much clinching(just like the old days) and the main grip would be the double head grip or ga chart(not like nowadays),as you said in one of your posts once caught in that position and ragged about it is very hard to bite and your probably guna get your teeth knocked out!.

I was mainly looking at the modern day clinch game with its use of underhooks/overhooks etc.

[fire cobra]

Just so I am clear - The bite beats footwork, movement, kicks, punches, knees, elbows, clinch, grappling, speed, stength, conditioning, skill, and intellect?

Its beats that, every time? Wow, wish I had known that 17 years ago, could have saved a lot of time and just gone to the dentist.

Strange thing though, there's no bite marks on me.

Guess I just got lucky.

Michael,

I was reffering to clinch range where underhooks/overhooks etc dominate when i mentioned biting winning,bit to beat a jab,good footwork,good kicks,no of course not.

I do know i would be a more effective all around fighter with biting,gouging,butting,etc included in my game than without,notice i say included in my game not as my game itself.

[Guest]

Understood Fire Cobra, that didn't come across in your post, which is why it surprised me.

MMA for the military, I already covered that in my post, about the audience you are teaching.

...and Joe, good post, think we have both put our point across so thanks for a great discussion. Just to answer your final point, I don't exclude or deny my students any training methods, rather I replace them with what I feel are more efficient and effective methods. That's evolution, personal expression, and in my opinion - JKD.

[Guest]

I've received neg rep (anonymous, as usual) for my views on this thread

Looks like I have upset some "street" fighters

....hmmm, wonder who that could be

[fire cobra]

I've received neg rep (anonymous, as usual) for my views on this thread

Looks like I have upset some "street" fighters

....hmmm, wonder who that could be

Its not me i couldnt fight sleep!,ignore them Michael we are all due to our opinions rightly or wrongly.

Its been a good thread,as i come from a Harimau "Tiger" Silat background as well as Muay Thai, the tiger and its tactics always influence how i look at combat,hence the view on biting in close(and even from leaping!),good fun to practice which is my main reason for training!.

[Semper Fi]

Great thread and good discussions going on.

[Tant01]

To be clear...

if you are talking unarmed vs unarmed then yes, you would have to be able to beat him at his game. bites and eye gouges wont work if he is way ahead with his game.

MMA arsenal is enormous. You cant expect to beat a guy who has 1000+ techniques totally nailed and drilled to death and in peak phyiscal condition and is constantly going against equally skilled opponents, with a handful of techniques. You have to be able to match his game as well if you hope to apply them.
I havent seen any techniques listed that would put an MMA guy out of joint. The list provided earlier mainly revolved around ring rules with a large assumption that as soon as the rules are removed the MMA fighter is a fish out of water. Its simply not so. the game changes slightly but everything that WAS allowed is still valid. making the mental jump to no rules is hardly a big leap, imo.

I am woefully unprepared both in skill and fitness to tackle a mighty MMA guy!

Because of the obvious advantage he has I'm asking how a layman such as myself MIGHT POSSIBLY defend himself "on the streets" from a highly trained, skilled and athletic individual like a champion MMA fighter?

The answer is simple and obvious to some...


CHEAT! Biting won't work? Pinching, gouging, scratching...

No...

If a few empty hand techniques are not enough we really need to change TACTICS, eh?

There really is no such thing as "unarmed combat"...

Fighting is evil. (and messy)

[Tant01]

Phui...

I've received neg rep (anonymous, as usual) for my views on this thread

Looks like I have upset some "street" fighters

....hmmm, wonder who that could be

Anyone can be stabbed in the back... I think you'll survive. (Virtually)

[Ghost]

but tant, you are SO OLDDDDDDDDD i think you should be worrying more about remembering your weekly shopping than how to fight MMA chamsp

[FLMKane]

I got something for you. The two BASIC rules of sparring are:

1. Dont hurt your partner.
2. There are no other rules.

Instead of making up a list of rules, follow the two basic ones. Needless to say, those two rules are actually quite hard to follow, so should be restricted to a certain level of martial artists.

[Guest]

I fully endorse the notion that your goal in sparring should never be to intentionally injure your partner, you need him.

However, the notion of not hurting your sparring partner is peverse logic. Sparring at any form of effective level has to factor in a degree of pain, otherwise neither party can be sparring with any real intent. And that takes me back to my original post on the thread.

All of my sparring partners are good friends, but when we put the gloves on there is a clear understanding of what we are there to achieve, and that is to help each other become more effective fighters. That cannot be truly achieved without giving it out, and taking some in return.

[FLMKane]

I meant causing permanent injuries. Like armbar to broken bone. Or gouging his eyes out.But pain is essential.