Trapping...Does it work?

[Max22]

Well there you go, it seems Trapping does work after all.

I'm sure its just me, I must be rubbish at it.

I'm not sure what you mean here. I'm not discounting your experience of it, and in fact agree with most of what you say. If you are working alot of boxing you are just best to not even bother trying to trap.

I think if you took all that training you did when your were working your trapping, and sparred classically trained Wing Chun guys, and japanese classical arts you might see how the whole trapping business arose. I think against modern boxing attack and defense it doesn't work well, or at all. Against unrefined, stuttery attacks it can, along with the attacks of classical styles.

I think it is over emphasized almost any place it is trained, and typically, the less sparring, the more elaborate the trap training.

If you don't find it helpful for you then by all means don't use it. Your identification of delusional training, is also spot on. However there is some room for disagreement here.

Well there you go, it seems Trapping does work after all.

I'm sure its just me, I must be rubbish at it.

[Max22]

I would never doubt anything you say brother, but I do find that story absolutely staggering.

I trained in trapping for 15 years, with some of the best people in the world, before I started Boxing. Unless you are talking about a lucky check of the hand here and there against a stray punch, or unless you are talking about playing as opposed to sparring, then I am amazed. Your post seems to indicate neither of those things so again, I am very curious as to how you did it?

I have never made trapping work in any kind of real sparring (not playing) against a competent boxer. For you to apply Wing Chun based trapping against solid, competetive, amateur boxers is something I have never witnessed. I include people like Paul Vunak in those experiences. I have also sparred with some high level Wing Chun people who have tried to apply it against my Boxing, and got nowhere (and I am a very average Boxer).

If those are your experiences then you must be far more exceptional than I already thought you were, and fair play to you for achieving such a high level in the art.

This again returns to my structures argument. Trapping doesn't work against boxing, at least not much that I've ever witnessed. But it does work against karate, and kung fu stylists for the simple reason that they tend to be less fluid in their attack and defense than boxers. Classical stylists tend to block heavy, and then counter, or retreat, throw attacks singly etc. All things for which trapping might concievably be employed against.

I suspect the reason that Cheung and Botzepe don't perform what they teach is because their training method simply doesn't help them at all. I don't know if they spar., or if they cross train. Their fight was pretty silly because neither of them know how to fight they just know a lot of techniques, and ancient de-contextualized training methods.

[Max22]

Trapping "working" against those specific structures still remains nothing more than a routine, because those structures are never tested in a functional or alive environment. People from arts that are based around classical routines, especially trapping, completely change the way they fight if they ever really face an aggressive, resisiting opponent in a live situation. Check out the supreme trapping prowess of Master's Cheung and Boztepe when they fought. Man, that was pure poetry

Michael,
I've done it against the structures I am talking about in live sparring against wing chun, and karate stylists who came to my JKD group to train. Ate them up with the trapping. Traditional stylists often throw technique in ways that offer trapping as an option. This wasn't in a drill. This was in sparring. They were resisting opponents, aggressive in a live situation. So I think that trapping has a limited place in JKD curriculae. There is no need to spend hours and hours on it, and do the complex, and silly, endless trapping series.

[fire cobra]

I would never doubt anything you say brother, but I do find that story absolutely staggering.

I trained in trapping for 15 years, with some of the best people in the world, before I started Boxing. Unless you are talking about a lucky check of the hand here and there against a stray punch, or unless you are talking about playing as opposed to sparring, then I am amazed. Your post seems to indicate neither of those things so again, I am very curious as to how you did it?

I have never made trapping work in any kind of real sparring (not playing) against a competent boxer. For you to apply Wing Chun based trapping against solid, competetive, amateur boxers is something I have never witnessed. I include people like Paul Vunak in those experiences. I have also sparred with some high level Wing Chun people who have tried to apply it against my Boxing, and got nowhere (and I am a very average Boxer).

If those are your experiences then you must be far more exceptional than I already thought you were, and fair play to you for achieving such a high level in the art.

Hi Michael,

Well I never intented to make myself look like the bees knees bro I promise!,I also promise Im not the bees knees,just someone that was(is) fanatical about what I did/do,fanatical in that I really did some mad things!.

If I can elaborate a bit on the Boxing gyms experience Michael,I really did take plenty of knocks in trying to trap hands,I especially got hit with hooks as I remember(it was in the late 1970s/early to mid eighties ish).

The types of traps I would get were simple not complex,ie(To use Wing Chun terminology)simple Pak sau to gum sau pin,similtanious pak and punch on the inside line,I would get hit more using a inside Pak than a outside pak,I also used a variation of bong lap quite succesfully as I remember,also I used a boxing stance to do these moves from,but also tried a Wing Chun structure(as I understood it back then) but felt it silly to do this when in a Boxing gym.

I cant really think of what else to say to you other than what I say is true,some of the Boxers are still around in my home town/area and one is a promminent Muay Thai teacher now.

If you would like me to share any more of my training experiences ive had over the last 30 years I will be only to glad but would rather do it over a pm because I feel like Im "showing off" which is the last thing I would want to do.

Good training bro.

I would never doubt anything you say brother, but I do find that story absolutely staggering.

I trained in trapping for 15 years, with some of the best people in the world, before I started Boxing. Unless you are talking about a lucky check of the hand here and there against a stray punch, or unless you are talking about playing as opposed to sparring, then I am amazed. Your post seems to indicate neither of those things so again, I am very curious as to how you did it?

I have never made trapping work in any kind of real sparring (not playing) against a competent boxer. For you to apply Wing Chun based trapping against solid, competetive, amateur boxers is something I have never witnessed. I include people like Paul Vunak in those experiences. I have also sparred with some high level Wing Chun people who have tried to apply it against my Boxing, and got nowhere (and I am a very average Boxer).

If those are your experiences then you must be far more exceptional than I already thought you were, and fair play to you for achieving such a high level in the art.

[fire cobra]

Many years ago after studying Wing Chun for a few years I decided to do the rounds around the local Boxing Gyms In order to try and trap the Boxers hands the way I could do in Wing Chun,did it work?..yes but I got my ears rang(and perforated) a few times from hooks and had to drink chicken soup for a few days quite a few times before I really learnt what I could do with the trapping.

Lots of times after training the lads I boxed with asked me how I was doing what I was doing to their hands,these were amateurs some of whom had had 50 plus bouts and boxed for Uk etc,one in particular added the trapping to his game.

So does trapping work? depending on your experience yes for sure it does.

After I had done a couple of years in the Boxing gyms I went to the Thai Boxing gyms with a view to making the trapping work against Thai Boxers(the english variety) did it work? could I do it? thats another story!!.

[fire cobra]

Trapping "working" against those specific structures still remains nothing more than a routine, because those structures are never tested in a functional or alive environment. People from arts that are based around classical routines, especially trapping, completely change the way they fight if they ever really face an aggressive, resisiting opponent in a live situation. Check out the supreme trapping prowess of Master's Cheung and Boztepe when they fought. Man, that was pure poetry

Ha Ha I like the last two lines Michael.

I still think trapping works only against specific structures

Trapping "working" against those specific structures still remains nothing more than a routine, because those structures are never tested in a functional or alive environment. People from arts that are based around classical routines, especially trapping, completely change the way they fight if they ever really face an aggressive, resisiting opponent in a live situation. Check out the supreme trapping prowess of Master's Cheung and Boztepe when they fought. Man, that was pure poetry

[blanker]

So you're here speaking authoritatively about a topic that you have no real experience with other than watching a few video clips.

i have an objective opinion on the matter as i am indifferent to arts that use trapping. if im wrong and i dont have a problem admitting i may be, show me a full contact fight were the complex trapping used in these arts are put into practive effectively.

[Max22]

A quibble

In my experience, Trapping works under three conditions:

1. Most people (95% or so) utilise it in rehearsed routines that offer them the right position and energy to make the art effective, whilst convincing everyone including themselves that this is real training.

2. Exceptionally talented people pull it off in alive training against very average training partners, whilst convincing everyone including themselves that this is real training.

3. Someone pulled off a trap once by accident, in the ring, the cage or the street, then they feel the need to endlessly bang on about the virtues of trapping, whilst convincing everyone including themselves that this is real training.

If you make it your business to prove that trapping works, you will orchestrate circumstances that will serve to prove you right, regardless of their authenticity.

I think there some truth to what you are saying, however I still think trapping works only against specific structures. Mainly classical structures. The simultaneous parry and hit is possible against many structures.

Though you make a fair point about delusional training.

In my experience, Trapping works under three conditions:

1. Most people (95% or so) utilise it in rehearsed routines that offer them the right position and energy to make the art effective, whilst convincing everyone including themselves that this is real training.

2. Exceptionally talented people pull it off in alive training against very average training partners, whilst convincing everyone including themselves that this is real training.

3. Someone pulled off a trap once by accident, in the ring, the cage or the street, then they feel the need to endlessly bang on about the virtues of trapping, whilst convincing everyone including themselves that this is real training.

If you make it your business to prove that trapping works, you will orchestrate circumstances that will serve to prove you right, regardless of their authenticity.

[mellow]

none so i may be wrong but a few general fact are that fine motor skills (like trapping a moving hand) dosnt work in general unless your fighting someone far inferior then you. just look at any of the dog brother or other full contact stick fights and theres not really any trapping the same could be said for the clips i have seen of full contact wing chun (i havent seen any full contact jkd) i dont have anything against these arts but from what i have observed under pressure trapping isnt used. i have read also that alot of the jkd concept guys are dropping trapping in favour of clinching and that towards the end of his life so was bruce lee, i cant remember were i read this so i cant quote it.

So you're here speaking authoritatively about a topic that you have no real experience with other than watching a few video clips.

[Max22]

Indeed

Everything on the planets' utility is subject to context. As JKD folk, it's arguably double important that we know that. While I experience it much less frequently with resistance of some stripe, it does present itself as an opportunity. Have used it with and without tools, and have used it both standing and from my back- again, all in context.

Our group doesn't practice it as much because of it's lack of frequent opportunity to need/use it, but it's a useful tool in context.

Hrm. Makes me think of one other thing: we don't work disarms of tools very much. Meaning, most JKD/FMA guys I know, because we all agree the opportunity to do so doesn't present itself in the context of a fully resisting "opponent", don't work disarms very frequently. There's little argument about this. So, why do we not think in the same way with trapping?

Trapping works and works well against certain structures. In my experience, I've trapped classical stylists, and Wing Chun guys in full sparring situations. They present structures that seem well designed for hand immobilization attacks. To a lesser extent, I used and seen used, trapping techniques against the untrained fighter who just wants to swing wildly, but doesn't really understand fighting.

You don't see it in MMA and boxing much, at least not in the classical sense, because they just don't offer alot of blocking, on which a great deal of trapping is predicated. You do see lots of clinch fighting in which you could argueably say is immobilization attacking. Randy Couture's dirty boxing is an example but others exist. I suppose someone could launch in with a strong pak da but is that worth as much as jab cross? Any trapping is going to invite grappling. Bottom line, trapping is effective strategy in a certain context.

[corwin137]

Everything on the planets' utility is subject to context. As JKD folk, it's arguably double important that we know that. While I experience it much less frequently with resistance of some stripe, it does present itself as an opportunity. Have used it with and without tools, and have used it both standing and from my back- again, all in context.

Our group doesn't practice it as much because of it's lack of frequent opportunity to need/use it, but it's a useful tool in context.

Hrm. Makes me think of one other thing: we don't work disarms of tools very much. Meaning, most JKD/FMA guys I know, because we all agree the opportunity to do so doesn't present itself in the context of a fully resisting "opponent", don't work disarms very frequently. There's little argument about this. So, why do we not think in the same way with trapping?