Trapping...Does it work?

[Guest]

The static complex trapping most of us practice doesn't work in the same way 3-5 strike combo's don't work (in or out of the ring)

In my opinion and experience, that's an unfounded and completely innacurate comparison. Combinations of punches from Western Boxing training do clearly work, all of the time, and end many fights. Look at any stoppage where the referee has to step in due to a barrage of unanswered punches from one fighter, those are punches thrown as a series of combinations. What you may be referring to are the sets, drills and routines that martial artists (particularly in JKD) like to put together on the pads - which I agree are static and not functional. However, train at any good Boxing or Thai Boxing gym and you learn how to put together realistic combinations that flow naturally to overwhelm your opponent and stop the fight.

The lack of trapping in MMA is simple most of them don't keep their hands up.

That certainly ranks as one of the weaker arguments on that point, of which all such arguments can be responded to with a simple point. MMA doesn't use trapping because it doesn't need it, the delivery systems are already in place to do the job at hand - which is clearly evident given the guy laying on the canvas at the end. If trapping were needed it would be used, but it isn't, so its not. It isn’t any more complicated than that.

Remember most of the people out bashing what we do in JKD can't do it.

Most people who bash JKD simply see through it for what it is: an over-intellectulised mess that never really answers any of the questions it raises. Put a JKD man up against a dedicated man of any of its component arts, and I'll bet my house that they will have their arse handed to them. The people who have really excelled in JKD have done so by stepping out of it and going to the root of their chosen art, just like any other person can do, without all the philosophical bullshit and hero worship. The reason that the coda of JKD is its all about "the process and not the product" is because we excel at drawing out the former, but are pretty poor at ever delivering the latter.

[DonKey]

In my opinion and experience, that's an unfounded and completely innacurate comparison. Combinations of punches from Western Boxing training do clearly work, all of the time, and end many fights. Look at any stoppage where the referee has to step in due to a barrage of unanswered punches from one fighter, those are punches thrown as a series of combinations. What you may be referring to are the sets, drills and routines that martial artists (particularly in JKD) like to put together on the pads - which I agree are static and not functional. However, train at any good Boxing or Thai Boxing gym and you learn how to put together realistic combinations that flow naturally to overwhelm your opponent and stop the fight.



That certainly ranks as one of the weaker arguments on that point, of which all such arguments can be responded to with a simple point. MMA doesn't use trapping because it doesn't need it, the delivery systems are already in place to do the job at hand - which is clearly evident given the guy laying on the canvas at the end. If trapping were needed it would be used, but it isn't, so its not. It isn’t any more complicated than that.



Most people who bash JKD simply see through it for what it is: an over-intellectulised mess that never really answers any of the questions it raises. Put a JKD man up against a dedicated man of any of its component arts, and I'll bet my house that they will have their arse handed to them. The people who have really excelled in JKD have done so by stepping out of it and going to the root of their chosen art, just like any other person can do, without all the philosophical bullshit and hero worship. The reason that the coda of JKD is its all about "the process and not the product" is because we excel at drawing out the former, but are pretty poor at ever delivering the latter.

While I think JKD can be useful in exposing someone to a lot of tools, I think your last paragraph is right on, the JKD teachers who I know and respect as fighters didn't go with the shotgun approach, instead choosing a base art and
getting really good at it(often thai or western boxing).

[Justthefacts]

Real Fights

Michael: How do you explain the success that Bruce Lee's students had when using the tools taught to them by their Sifu in REAL LIFE combat situations? I'll put a prime Bob Bremer, James DeMile, Jesse Glover, Howard Williams, or Larry Hartsell against any MMA guy in the streets and feel pretty comfortable with my subsequent wager. JKD and/or Jun Fan Gung Fu was not a "mess" to those who touched hands with Bruce Lee. As Bruce Lee once told Sifu Jerry Poteet, "Seeing is not believing, feeling is believing."

[Wi Kali Group]

Simple answer is he can't

He really can't. The web is full of sudo experts on JKD/Kali and training by drills. Their only claim is they looked at it and figured out its worthless. Or they trained it and couldn't get very good at it. Either way they want everyone else to ignore it. It would be too much for their ego if someone else is doing something they can't. All they do is run around telling people you will never get that to work. Why not leave people alone. Why do people have to try to drag people down with them. Their is more to the arts than kicking ass. Also out side of a ring or other sport you only need a few things to defend yourself. If you were stuck on an island what book would you take. Its kinda like that. If your only goal is to kick ass pick 3 solid strikes. Get some steroids. Build some booze/drug tolerance. Then all you need is your bashing skills and a lack of morality (the willingness to use them anywhere). But you will also need a good lawyer, no fear of going to jail.

[Guest]

Michael: How do you explain the success that Bruce Lee's students had when using the tools taught to them by their Sifu in REAL LIFE combat situations? I'll put a prime Bob Bremer, James DeMile, Jesse Glover, Howard Williams, or Larry Hartsell against any MMA guy in the streets and feel pretty comfortable with my subsequent wager. JKD and/or Jun Fan Gung Fu was not a "mess" to those who touched hands with Bruce Lee. As Bruce Lee once told Sifu Jerry Poteet, "Seeing is not believing, feeling is believing."

In the 1960’s, when martial arts in the United States was relatively immature, and Jun Fan Gung Fu was way ahead of it’s time, and a phenomenally talented individual was personally teaching hand picked students who already had a strong fighting background, you’re absolutely right my friend that wasn’t a mess. Great times, wish I could have been there.

Unfortunately, that is no longer our reality, and my comments are about right now in 2009. Everything evolves.

[Guest]

He really can't. The web is full of sudo experts on JKD/Kali and training by drills. Their only claim is they looked at it and figured out its worthless. Or they trained it and couldn't get very good at it. Either way they want everyone else to ignore it. It would be too much for their ego if someone else is doing something they can't. All they do is run around telling people you will never get that to work. Why not leave people alone. Why do people have to try to drag people down with them. Their is more to the arts than kicking ass. Also out side of a ring or other sport you only need a few things to defend yourself. If you were stuck on an island what book would you take. Its kinda like that. If your only goal is to kick ass pick 3 solid strikes. Get some steroids. Build some booze/drug tolerance. Then all you need is your bashing skills and a lack of morality (the willingness to use them anywhere). But you will also need a good lawyer, no fear of going to jail.

I don’t feel particularly motivated to alter your opinion of me, but to offer some context to the discussion you are welcome to look at the following, and by all means draw your own conclusions around the basis of my opinions:

Adaptive Martial Concepts

My training isn’t motivated by kicking ass, I gave up worrying about fights a long time ago. 90% of my training now is in Combat Athletics just to stay in shape and have fun – but I stay in shape and have fun by training in methods that I can still always see the functional benefit from. That means its fun and its honest. What always amazes me is this notion in martial arts where people think in order to be “balanced” you need to have a mix of alive training and then a bunch of dead routines. That’s completely irrational. People then defend these dead routines by saying “its not all about kicking ass”. I completely agree but here is the crucial point on that – why can’t you enjoy your martial arts and have just as much balance by training in methods that all deliver some form of functional benefit?

I see the vast majority (not all) of the physical curriculum of JKD (be that Original or Concepts) filled with sets, drills, patterns and routines that bear no resemblance to the attributes required to ever utilise the techniques therein. They are convoluted, contrived and only serve to act as a very impressive set of demonstrations at seminars or on DVDs. Add on top of that the philosophical element, which seeks to constantly blind, confuse and talk its way out of the many glaring questions the student will ask – most notably “what is the point of this?”

A lot of people have seen through JKD, and that’s just evolution. Case in point, my last visit to the Inosanto Academy where there were 30 people in the Muay Thai class, 30 people in the Grappling class, and 4 people in the JKD class. Martial artists in 2009 are smart consumers, who like any customer in any other industry expect to see a result on their investment. When they stand around doing trapping sets and stick sets and dummy sets they rightly question the impact this is having on their ability i.e. where are the results? They will be answered with the process vs. product line, but the problem is that they will then wander into the next class and start to feel the product from day one. That’s just life.

Sitting in the comfort zone of what JKD can build around you is actually one of the easiest ways to develop your ego. The academies, the certificates, the seminars, the titles, the reputation. If you think looking critically at what you have been doing for ten years and stepping into an amateur boxing gym for the first time at 30 years old is an easy thing to do for your ego, then I can tell you its not. I still have the broken nose to prove it. That’s just one example of how I have tried to take off the blinkers and step into the zone that we like to talk up in JKD but not too many people walk it. In 2 weeks time I’ll be training in Thailand, probably finding out just how bad my Muay Thai is, and that’s not going to be great on the ego either.

As a final point, and judging by all the neg rep I’ve picked up on this, its clear that my point of view is not sitting well with people on this forum. Again, what amazes me about that is I was always taught that a critical, sceptical, questioning mind was the hallmark of a JKD man. Mr Bruce Lee looked around him at what was held up at the time as best practise and took a stand to say I don’t agree, I think this is the wrong path, and I think we can do this better. Its so ironic that most (not all) of those who follow his path, completely fail to follow his example.

[Jujujason]

I got your back Michael, no matter what! =)

[Justthefacts]

Reality

Michael: Each individual can and should seek their own path to personal liberation. I think it's cool that you have actively sought out the "truth," but blanket statements based on selective information will be always be met with a rebuttal. I would like to present 3 rebuttal witnesses.

1) Sifu Richie Carrion: Sifu Carrion has successfully trained his students to compete in full contact matches using JKD techniques.

2) Sifu Jeremy Lynch: Sifu Lynch successfully used JKD techniques in the kickboxing ring.

3) Sifu Lamar Davis: Sifu Davis has successfully used JKD techniques in countless street fights and in many of those street fights, he used trapping techniques.

A tough guy is a tough guy. It doesn't matter if he kicked ass in 1920, 1960, or 2009. Let's use boxing as an example. Sugar Ray Robinson began his professional career in 1940, yet he is still considered to be the best fighter pound for pound in the history of boxing. Were Robinson's training methods more sophisticated than the training methods of Floyd Mayweather? No. Is Mayweather a better fighter than Robinson? No. Since Robinson fought in the stone age, are his fighting techniques inferior to the techniques of Mayweather? No. Why is that? If your argument is correct, that should not happen. The reality, however, is that Robinson's techniques worked in 1940, and they would work today. Take a gifted athlete and teach him JKD techniques, he will succeed in the sporting world and he will most certainly be feared in the streets.

[joeygil]

A lot of people have seen through JKD, and that’s just evolution. Case in point, my last visit to the Inosanto Academy where there were 30 people in the Muay Thai class, 30 people in the Grappling class, and 4 people in the JKD class. Martial artists in 2009 are smart consumers, who like any customer in any other industry expect to see a result on their investment. When they stand around doing trapping sets and stick sets and dummy sets they rightly question the impact this is having on their ability i.e. where are the results? They will be answered with the process vs. product line, but the problem is that they will then wander into the next class and start to feel the product from day one. That’s just life.

While I don't necessarily disagree with all your points, I would like to point out that seems like a fluke. I live in Los Angeles, and go to the IAMA regularly, and usually see more than 4 people in the JKD class. There are currently 3 JKD class levels taught, level 1 and 3 have the highest attendance, at around 20, and level 2 has maybe a dozen. A reason you'll see less folks in each class is not everyone does all 3 classes - most in level 3 don't do either of the lower levels. A good chunk in level 1 aren't allowed into level 2 yet. Also, I'm not sure which grappling class you're talking about. The Shooto class rarely has over 10 people, and the Machado BJJ class about the same. It's possible you saw JKD 3, which Sifu Dan has been incorporating grappling for the past 2 years.

Note: JKD 1 & 2 are primarily OJKD, taught by Sifu Yori Nakamura. JKD 3 is taught by Sifu Dan Inosanto.

Whether or not Trapping works in a real fight? I really don't know as I haven't been in a real fight since high school almost 20 years ago. I'm sure it works in a subset of fights. I was just talking with a friend who apparently gets in fights in seedy bars, and he says trapping works great there. Against a trained MMA style fighter, not so much evidence for that (unless you want to expand your definition of trapping).

[corwin137]

Happy to see some thoughtful posts on the subject. It just so happens that Steve Grody just posted a fairly lengthy note about this on his blog a couple days ago. There's some stuff there that's not only trapping relevant, but self-defense (preservation, whatever the nomenclature of the week is...) relevant as well...
Downtown L.A. Self Defense - Steve Grody

[Wi Kali Group]

Totally miffed

I remember something Rick Faye said years ago about topics reoccurring in the Martial Art magazines. We had this phenomenon back in the late 80's early 90's. I think they call it aliveness now. We called it a sparring mentality (it was more than just sparring). It was the same thing you see now with the resisting opponent. Looking at what you can see working in a fight/sport. The only thing was you didn't have the internet so they could only spread their negativity in person.

Back then it was almost always big clumsy guys. They usually didn't like anything but sparring or training with resistance involved. Not because it didn't have value but because they could never do it well. They gravitated to boxing & grappling. Not because its better but its better for them. Anything involving finesse or fine motion is beyond them.

Now I'm not saying these guys are worthless. They offer a valid point of view. But its just a sliver (a very small one at that) of training. And their way is not for everyone.

Great instructors like Master Chai & the FMA instructors (who Sifu Dan learned from). They use these dead training methods for a simple reason. They are trying to impart lessons they learned in real combat to you in a safe training drill.

The problem is some people look at this training through the blinders of sparring or fighting. Hubud, chisao, trapping and say you will never fight like that. And all the instructors I've had agree. A fight will never look like that. These drills are only a small piece of combat (maybe). You drill them over and over on the chance that if you need them bang they might work. With the JKD it might mean the difference in finishing the fight in a few min vs. rolling on the ground and getting hurt.

And with weapons somethings can not be trained safely without drilling. So you either have to cheat your students training or train some dead drills. In some of these dead drills you can isolate complicated moves and ingrain them into muscle memory (the big clumsy guys can't do this). Then after you improve you try to work them into more alive training. It seems to me that if you get sucked into this sparring mentality your training will peak prematurely. You will never go as far as you can. You never have anything to fall back on when you get burntout on the simple training. Boredom is the enemy of advancement.

When you see people trashing anyone's training. Making the claim it won't work. Take a good look at them. Are they big tough guys. Could it be they are just good at what they do. Maybe they are ripping on what they can't do. Why else would someone who has so much disrespect for JKD and those who teach & train it be in a forum on JKD.

Lastly if you look at something and are convinced it won't work good chance it won't.

"If instantly know the candle light is fire, then the meal was cooked a long time ago."

So maybe the problem isn't with the art but the artist.

[Guest]

When you see people trashing anyone's training. Making the claim it won't work. Take a good look at them. Maybe they are ripping on what they can't do. Why else would someone who has so much disrespect for JKD and those who teach & train it be in a forum on JKD

You've already gone down that angle once, I responded to it with my background and who I am, so your argument carries no weight. I'm not sure you've offered any form or articulate response to any of my challenges, you just keep banging the brainwashed drum of "how dare you criticise".

Its not disrespectful to have a strong point of view on your beliefs, once again that is a big part of JKD, for without it JKD wouldn't exist. My instructors in JKD (two of whom you have thrown at me in your post) know my beliefs and in the spirit of our JKD culture accept the fact that as an individual I am entitled to my opinion. We may not agree, but that's fine, I'm not trying to be them - I'm just being me.

I've heard all of the points in your first few paragraphs a thousand times before, all just desperate philosophical attempts to defend ineffective training methods. The reason I know that is because I also used to use them, until I woke up and smelt what I was shovelling. I have spent the last 17 years going through all of that, I've been through it and come out the other side with an informed opinion. That opinion is there are two routes in martial arts - one is alive, functional and will produce the results you are looking for in an efficient and effective manner. The other is one that promises to deliver the same results and more, but asks you to hang around for 20 or 30 years to see them. If that's what you want to do then that's cool, best of luck to you.

[Wi Kali Group]

I give up

You just can't reason with people that drink the coolaid. So I'm directing this at people who may have an open mind.

M. Wright Said
"
Its not disrespectful to have a strong point of view on your beliefs, once again that is a big part of JKD, for without it JKD wouldn't exist."

No not in and of itself. I would say a casual observer would say I have one too. Where he was disrespectful (not to mention arrogant) is where he assumed what didn't work for him can't work for anyone else. We all learn differently. We all have vastly different levels of talents & abilities.

It's like the people who assume BJJ is the best. Or the host of deadliest technique of the month articles. BJJ may be the best for one person and totally useless to the next person. (You still need to work it). Maybe I've never going to have a great award winning side kick. But I may need a side kick (or a trap for that matter) and all I can say is my side kick or trap or BJJ can be better in a month than it can today. Maybe I'll never be great but I know I can be better than I am today.

M. Wright said

"My instructors in JKD (two of whom you have thrown at me in your post) know my beliefs and in the spirit of our JKD culture accept the fact that as an individual I am entitled to my opinion. We may not agree, but that's fine, I'm not trying to be them - I'm just being me."

Now this is the best part. They let you be you. They could run around on say posts and tell everyone they thought you were maybe young talented and misguided. But they don't they have respect enough for you to let you be you. Why can't you have the same respect for me and others on this forum and adopt their silence. Start an aliveness thread. Talk about all the positive aspects of your training. You don't see any of the people I've mentioned running around in public trashing people.

M. Wright Said

"The reason I know that is because I also used to use them, until I woke up and smelt what I was shoveling. I have spent the last 17 years going through all of that, I've been through it and come out the other side with an informed opinion."

So he shoveled it for 17 years. Probably defending JKD as I am now. Trashing anyone who disagreed with him. But now he's seen the light and we should just trust him. If you don't believe it he has a website. So does everyone. We are just supposed to believe what he is shoveling now. Can't we just figure out what he is going to train in 17 years and get a head start on him. Which is more likely

1. He's right (it only took him 17 years to figure it out)

2. He's wrong (and maybe he just found a way of training that works best for him.)

Even if he was right (I think he's too hung up on his last name) do you really want to take advice from someone that needed 17 years to figure it out. Or is it more likely that after training it for 17 years he's pissed off at an art he couldn't figure out.

[Justthefacts]

Functional JKD

Michael: The following link provides an example of how JKD can be as effective as any martial art. Considering that I used Richie Carrion as one of 3 "rebuttal witnesses" to the notion that JKD is not functional, I was happy to see him mentioned in the following thread/link.

Another JKd win in the cage - Jeet Kune Do Talk

[Clubber Lang]

Good - please do give up

You just can't reason with people that drink the coolaid. So I'm directing this at people who may have an open mind.

M. Wright Said
"
Its not disrespectful to have a strong point of view on your beliefs, once again that is a big part of JKD, for without it JKD wouldn't exist."

No not in and of itself. I would say a casual observer would say I have one too. Where he was disrespectful (not to mention arrogant) is where he assumed what didn't work for him can't work for anyone else. We all learn differently. We all have vastly different levels of talents & abilities.

It's like the people who assume BJJ is the best. Or the host of deadliest technique of the month articles. BJJ may be the best for one person and totally useless to the next person. (You still need to work it). Maybe I've never going to have a great award winning side kick. But I may need a side kick (or a trap for that matter) and all I can say is my side kick or trap or BJJ can be better in a month than it can today. Maybe I'll never be great but I know I can be better than I am today.

M. Wright said

"My instructors in JKD (two of whom you have thrown at me in your post) know my beliefs and in the spirit of our JKD culture accept the fact that as an individual I am entitled to my opinion. We may not agree, but that's fine, I'm not trying to be them - I'm just being me."

Now this is the best part. They let you be you. They could run around on say posts and tell everyone they thought you were maybe young talented and misguided. But they don't they have respect enough for you to let you be you. Why can't you have the same respect for me and others on this forum and adopt their silence. Start an aliveness thread. Talk about all the positive aspects of your training. You don't see any of the people I've mentioned running around in public trashing people.

M. Wright Said

"The reason I know that is because I also used to use them, until I woke up and smelt what I was shoveling. I have spent the last 17 years going through all of that, I've been through it and come out the other side with an informed opinion."

So he shoveled it for 17 years. Probably defending JKD as I am now. Trashing anyone who disagreed with him. But now he's seen the light and we should just trust him. If you don't believe it he has a website. So does everyone. We are just supposed to believe what he is shoveling now. Can't we just figure out what he is going to train in 17 years and get a head start on him. Which is more likely

1. He's right (it only took him 17 years to figure it out)

2. He's wrong (and maybe he just found a way of training that works best for him.)

Even if he was right (I think he's too hung up on his last name) do you really want to take advice from someone that needed 17 years to figure it out. Or is it more likely that after training it for 17 years he's pissed off at an art he couldn't figure out.

Jesus man, why are you getting so bent out of shape?

The guy is just sharing his honest views from his experiences, and passing comment on the training methods of an art, that's what everyone does on this forum - that's what a forum is for. If you disagree then come back with an argument as to why you disagree and back it up with some experiences, like he has. All I've seen from you so far is just a bunch of whining and sulking, just because somebody has dared to criticise your art.

You say he's trashing people and being disrespectful, I haven't seen him name anyone or trash anyone, he's just talking in broad terms. Yet you are coming back in your posts calling him arrogant, disrespectful, and you're getting really personal about him - and that's just making you look like a hypocritical jerk.

I haven't met or trained with the guy but I know his background and have seen his stuff, and I'd say the guy knows what he is talking about. I'm not saying I agree with him but at least I know he's actually gone through the mill to arrive at his point of view - and he is entitled to express it. He posted his website to show that you were wrong in all of your other posts when you were saying he knew nothing about JKD and couldn't do it, and I just think you are pissed off because he's discredited your point of view. What I don't know is jack shit about you, what have you been through, and what exactly is your point of view outside of trying to discredit Mr Wright?

Your post is basically saying he should keep his mouth shut out of respect for the art and for his teachers. This is 2009 buddy and its a free country, if the guy has a point of view then he is perfectly entitled to express it, what the hell do you think we have internet forums for? Who are you to come on here trying to silence him? This isn't the Roman Catholic church and sorry to break this to you but you aren't the pope, as much as you come across like one.

And finally, do you know anything about Jeet Kune Do? Where we you in the 1950's and 1960's when Bruce Lee took his (17 years or so) of experience and voiced his very strong and very public opinions on the way other people trained? Where we you in the 1970's and 1980's when Dan Inosanto was traveling round the world voicing all of his opinions in public about the shortcomings of current training methods and how we can do things better? Have you ever seen a Paul Vunak tape? They are loaded with examples of how traditional methods fall down in combat and how his method is more effective. Jeet Kune Do was built on unpopular speech, and now we're trying to silence it? Well if thats the way things are then I think Mr Wright has a point, because that means Jeet Kune Do is dying.