Internal Martial Arts

[eXcessiveForce]

Accupressure, Accupuncture and moxibustion use point along the Chi Meridians. To oversimplify. The idea is pain, and illness are caused when chi does not flow though the meridians properly. So by applying pressure, needles or needles and heat you can remove the blockage of the chi and then the persons health should improve.

It just so happens that many of the accupuncture points rest over nerves. But that is not really what the accupuncturist is concerned with.

They are concerned with Chi Flow

[Hulk]

Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
Accupressure, Accupuncture and moxibustion use point along the Chi Meridians. To oversimplify. The idea is pain, and illness are caused when chi does not flow though the meridians properly. So by applying pressure, needles or needles and heat you can remove the blockage of the chi and then the persons health should improve.

It just so happens that many of the accupuncture points rest over nerves. But that is not really what the accupuncturist is concerned with.

They are concerned with Chi Flow

yeah its how dim mak works from what i read.... and that the masters are excellent doctors.

[ryanhall]

Dim Mak has nothing to do with acupuncture. Dim Mak is nonsense and completely fake. One of those martial myths that have been floating around for years. Nothing to it.

[akja]

Originally posted by ryanhall
Dim Mak has nothing to do with acupuncture. Dim Mak is nonsense and completely fake. One of those martial myths that have been floating around for years. Nothing to it.

I'm not disputing you, I haven't seen it ever.

But how does one prove it is fake?

[eXcessiveForce]

Since I don't discount things I have never seen I own several books on Dim Mak, I cannot tell you if as a system is worthwhile or has any benefit to it what so ever, but I do know that a few of the strikes do lie over sensitive pressure points that do allow for knockouts and possible death.

Dim Mak does use several of the Chi Meridians found in Accupuncture.

[ryanhall]

I consider myself a fairly open minded and accepting individual. Unfortunately for Dim Mak, I am also a level headed person. As a result, I don't buy into it. The idea that the human body will drop at the touch of a hand is ridiculous. The human body is a powerful machine that does not just cease to function because it was tickled on a pressure point.

Akja wrote:

But how does one prove it is fake?

Like this:
1) If Dim Mak were real, we would have professional athletes dropping like flies. They bump into and hit one another with a fair amount of force, and limbs fly, hitting other players. Why do we never hear of a mysterious knockout that nobody can explain? Because things just don't happen that way. Every now and then we'll see someone get poked in the eye, elbowed in the jaw, or popped in the throat. When these things happen, a player is almost invariably injured enough to have to step out of the game for a few moments. Sometimes these injuries are serious.

2) Anyone who has been in a real fight, or even a boxing match will tell you that it can be pretty hard to hit someone in the head with force, much less the nose or jaw. How then should one be able to strike a tiny "pressure point" on their opponent to disable them when they can barely touch a ten pound mellon on top of their shoulders? One cannot be expected to do that. It just won't happen. The chin is a great knockout shot, and it retires many boxers. How many punches are thrown by extremely skilled hand fighters before the chin is struck solidly? Lots. Just look up the stats next time you watch a boxing match. Granted, boxers are also particularly good at avoiding punches to the head, but the point still stands.

3) What if your assailant isn't wearing a t-shirt and standing as still as a statue? Uh oh. Pressure point shot fails and you just ate a fist. Sound fun? Not to me. Powerful body shots can be negated by heavy clothing, so what makes you think that a solitary strike to a specific area would fare any better?

Just some things to think about.

ExcessiveForce wrote:

but I do know that a few of the strikes do lie over sensitive pressure points that do allow for knockouts and possible death.

In real fighting, these areas are called the throat, the eyes, the solar plexus, the temples, the jaw, the nose, the back of the neck, the groin, and the knees. There is nothing mystical about fighting. There are no secrets. Anyone who tells you different is selling something. You don't need to study for 20 years at Chi Gung or under a great grandmaster to be able to fight properly. Magic is nice to look for, but don't be surprised if you are disappointed.

How pressure points work as far as I can tell:
The mind guides the body. If you believe that you will fall, you will fall. If you were to see 10 people go before you and become mysteriously "knocked out" (faking) by a tap to the head and a push on the chest, and you thought that it might really work, there is a fair possibility that it will work on you because you believe in your mind that it will. By the same token, if you were to walk in without seeing any of that and the great grandiose master did the same tap and push to you, you wouldn't even budge. The mind guides the body. Don't forget it.

Sorry about the long post. I have too much to say

[BlackMaskX]

IMAs vs. martial sports

Chris,

You seem to prefer internal martial arts to sports systems like MT and BJJ. Have you fought (either in the ring or on the street) a lot of people who do the more hardcore sports-oriented systems besides MT and BJJ, especially Western boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, shootfighting, or vale tudo? Forgive my skepticism, but I can't really see myself defeating a muscular, experienced boxer/kickboxer/MMA fighter with tai chi or ba gua.

I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm conflicted about the TMA vs. modern martial sports issue, and whether TMA techniques are less practical. You said you felt the internal martial arts were excellent systems because they have good power and body alignment. If you could go into more detail about how you use these aspects in fights, I would appreciate it. Thanks.

[akja]

Originally posted by ryanhall
I consider myself a fairly open minded and accepting individual. Unfortunately for Dim Mak, I am also a level headed person. As a result, I don't buy into it. The idea that the human body will drop at the touch of a hand is ridiculous. The human body is a powerful machine that does not just cease to function because it was tickled on a pressure point.

Akja wrote:

Like this:
1) If Dim Mak were real, we would have professional athletes dropping like flies. They bump into and hit one another with a fair amount of force, and limbs fly, hitting other players. Why do we never hear of a mysterious knockout that nobody can explain? Because things just don't happen that way. Every now and then we'll see someone get poked in the eye, elbowed in the jaw, or popped in the throat. When these things happen, a player is almost invariably injured enough to have to step out of the game for a few moments. Sometimes these injuries are serious.

2) Anyone who has been in a real fight, or even a boxing match will tell you that it can be pretty hard to hit someone in the head with force, much less the nose or jaw. How then should one be able to strike a tiny "pressure point" on their opponent to disable them when they can barely touch a ten pound mellon on top of their shoulders? One cannot be expected to do that. It just won't happen. The chin is a great knockout shot, and it retires many boxers. How many punches are thrown by extremely skilled hand fighters before the chin is struck solidly? Lots. Just look up the stats next time you watch a boxing match. Granted, boxers are also particularly good at avoiding punches to the head, but the point still stands.

3) What if your assailant isn't wearing a t-shirt and standing as still as a statue? Uh oh. Pressure point shot fails and you just ate a fist. Sound fun? Not to me. Powerful body shots can be negated by heavy clothing, so what makes you think that a solitary strike to a specific area would fare any better?

Just some things to think about.

ExcessiveForce wrote:

In real fighting, these areas are called the throat, the eyes, the solar plexus, the temples, the jaw, the nose, the back of the neck, the groin, and the knees. There is nothing mystical about fighting. There are no secrets. Anyone who tells you different is selling something. You don't need to study for 20 years at Chi Gung or under a great grandmaster to be able to fight properly. Magic is nice to look for, but don't be surprised if you are disappointed.

How pressure points work as far as I can tell:
The mind guides the body. If you believe that you will fall, you will fall. If you were to see 10 people go before you and become mysteriously "knocked out" (faking) by a tap to the head and a push on the chest, and you thought that it might really work, there is a fair possibility that it will work on you because you believe in your mind that it will. By the same token, if you were to walk in without seeing any of that and the great grandiose master did the same tap and push to you, you wouldn't even budge. The mind guides the body. Don't forget it.

Sorry about the long post. I have too much to say

You spoke of the pressure points. When in a fight you don't hear much about attacking the nerve centers with viciosness or say a punch. But rather a finger or a knuckle.

I'm not talking about Dim Mak. I'm just saying that I know first hand that the nerve centers are wide open targets when grappling. I know they work.

When someone is coming at you full force, I haven't tried, not sure if I would. I'm also pretty sure that bumping and the sort does not effect the nerve centers because you need a smaller point like a finger or knuckle.

My point is I know the nerve centers exist and are vunerable. How can you prove that someone can not make Dim Mak work?

[ryanhall]

Punching with a knuckle extended is a good way to break a finger. Trying to use a single extended finger to jab someone is just as ludicrous. If/when you actually hit the person, you will jam or break your finger.

I am sure that these nerve endings are susceptible to being hurt, but do they cause the same kind of damage as a web hand strike to the throat? I would think not. That rules out their use in lethal force situations. Are they as easy to use as an elbow or a chinjab to the chin/face? If not, then that rules out their use in less than lethal encounters. Real fights do not give you the time to think about pressure points and such. Things move too quickly, and you definitely do not have the same control as in a practice session.

As far as grappling goes, if you are going to use a finger, use it to poke them in the eye, not some spot that may hurt when you are not under the effects of adrenaline, rage, fear, etc. When on the ground, it's a better idea to acquire the mount and pummel, or if the situation doesn't warrant that kind of a response, do something less damaging (i.e. joint lock, arm lock, etc.).

How can you prove that someone can not make Dim Mak work?

By what I have said in my previous post, due to the fact that I have a thorough understanding of biology, physiology and anatomy, because I know what adrenaline does to fine motor control, and because I know how real fights happen. I don't know if I can put it any plainer than that. How do I know that I can't use my mind to move a book shelf if I sit and try long enough? I don't know for sure, but I can be pretty darn certain that I won't be able to. Your question follows the same lines. Short of being attacked by a "Dim Mak Expert," I don't know if I'll have conclusive evidence to answer your qustion. Even then, there would be the arguements over whether my attacker was a "true" Dim Mak Expert. See where this is going?

[akja]

Originally posted by ryanhall
Punching with a knuckle extended is a good way to break a finger. Trying to use a single extended finger to jab someone is just as ludicrous. If/when you actually hit the person, you will jam or break your finger.

I am sure that these nerve endings are susceptible to being hurt, but do they cause the same kind of damage as a web hand strike to the throat? I would think not. That rules out their use in lethal force situations. Are they as easy to use as an elbow or a chinjab to the chin/face? If not, then that rules out their use in less than lethal encounters. Real fights do not give you the time to think about pressure points and such. Things move too quickly, and you definitely do not have the same control as in a practice session.

As far as grappling goes, if you are going to use a finger, use it to poke them in the eye, not some spot that may hurt when you are not under the effects of adrenaline, rage, fear, etc. When on the ground, it's a better idea to acquire the mount and pummel, or if the situation doesn't warrant that kind of a response, do something less damaging (i.e. joint lock, arm lock, etc.).


By what I have said in my previous post, due to the fact that I have a thorough understanding of biology, physiology and anatomy, because I know what adrenaline does to fine motor control, and because I know how real fights happen. I don't know if I can put it any plainer than that. How do I know that I can't use my mind to move a book shelf if I sit and try long enough? I don't know for sure, but I can be pretty darn certain that I won't be able to. Your question follows the same lines. Short of being attacked by a "Dim Mak Expert," I don't know if I'll have conclusive evidence to answer your qustion. Even then, there would be the arguements over whether my attacker was a "true" Dim Mak Expert. See where this is going?

Not punching with the knuckle. Applying pressure to the nerve centers. And when grappling its a bit dirty but not eyepoking. Ever try and armlock someone and they grab & you just can't quite get it.

Take your pointer finger and use your middle knuckle and feel along your jaw working your way towards the bottom of your ear almost where the bottom of thr jaw meets you neck and apply pressure. If you do it right you will feel it. Do it to yourself. If you use that on someone, you will get the armlock.

Those nerve centers are all of the body.

[Kingston]

Re: IMAs vs. martial sports

Originally posted by BlackMaskX
Chris,

You seem to prefer internal martial arts to sports systems like MT and BJJ. Have you fought (either in the ring or on the street) a lot of people who do the more hardcore sports-oriented systems besides MT and BJJ, especially Western boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, shootfighting, or vale tudo? Forgive my skepticism, but I can't really see myself defeating a muscular, experienced boxer/kickboxer/MMA fighter with tai chi or ba gua.

I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm conflicted about the TMA vs. modern martial sports issue, and whether TMA techniques are less practical. You said you felt the internal martial arts were excellent systems because they have good power and body alignment. If you could go into more detail about how you use these aspects in fights, I would appreciate it. Thanks.

i had a friend who takes JKD he was doing some ground work with his instructor. His instructor didn't try to tap him out or anything (though he could have) he just got himself into good possitions wich didn't allow my friend to get the upper hand.

The same thing can be said for stand up fighting. if your in the right possition it allows you to be in control, and also depending on your position you have more or less options for attack or defend.

To Ryanhall, i havn't heard anything about dim mak, but i do know that certain pressure points or vulnerable spots, when hit, can make a person react in pradictable ways.

as far as boxing goes....it mite be more fair if they were trained to hit those "sensitive" points, or had any knowlegde of them at all. Those padded gloves dont help either. i played football for 3 years, i used to play rugby as well, i aslo am currently taking a kineseology course. sports can help you learn about all the parts of the body, but they dont tell you how to hurt it. All north american sports take great care in protecting there athletes from injury.

most of those things wich are real, and not some scam can easily be explained, or shown by someone who knows how.

personaly my martial art has some aspects to it that some would think are "mysterious" or in this case "Dim Mak worthy"
but there is never any mention of Chi, or magic powers.

As far as killing someone with just pressure points, i would have to see it to beleave it.

pressure points cause alot of pain, and can invoke different reactions from people. If you can use that to your benifet there is not dout youll be a better fighter.

look at the o.c. spray thread, how it forces the person to close there eyes. (though it doesn't work on everyone) That is just as much a mental reaction if not more so then a physical reaction (persons eyes hurt brain says close em). pain makes people do things, all you have to do is know how to inflict the right kind in the right place.

the real stuff, from what iv heard, and the little iv seen are not all the incredible, or hard to beleave.

[akja]

Ryan, my point was if I'm able to use it with my little knowledge, to make someone "react" in a way that gives me the technique that I was looking for. Then there is probably more to it.

The nerves need pressure to be applied correctly. Thats why just hitting them is not the answer, not saying it can't be the answer though. Just if you know the right spot and apply pressure correctly you should be able to at least make your opponent give you an opening. And that is what fighting is about. Give and take.
Offense is defense and defense is offense.

I'm learning a bit about the nerve centers, so I don't know that much but what I do see that applies to the way that I fight is what I plan to keep. The rest will be on the back burner for another time, like when I'm ready for it.

Oh yea when grappling if you poke anybody in the eyes, nobody will want to roll with you anymore.

[eXcessiveForce]

My experiences with Dim Mak points are as follows.


There is a point in the middle of the eyelash. I was struck here with a kick in they eye and my face was numb for 6 months.


There is a nerve on the side of the neck called the Vagas nerve which controls the slowing of the heart. If struck it can cause the heart to stop.


A police officer working on Pressure point control tactics was kicked in the out side of the leg and promptly dropped to his knees and threw up.


I threw a kick at a bag and slipped and ended up doing an excellent knee strike into a cement floor. I was paralyzed for about 2 minutes then the side opposite of the injury was able to move. about 2 minutes later the otherside could move. Pain continued for about 6 months.

I have been able to find these points along the dim mak meridians.

I cannot say how effective they are in combat, but I have been able to use some of them.

I do not yet have the skill to use the multiple strikes to the points to cause the various results described in the book.

I also cannot find someone who will let me strike them at a reasonable amount for force. Most will only let me press the spot.

But if you wanted to prove conclusively that it doesn't work Ryan, then you could come down to Virginia Beach and we could test out the stuff and see


I have no idea if the stuff works as it says but if it does it might be worth learning

[ryanhall]

Well, EF, even though I travel down that way every couple months, I don't know if I'd like to be a Dim Mak striking dummy. Probably not as fun as it sounds. The spot on the outside of the leg is called the common peroneal nerve. It is the target of the Muay Thai roundhouse, and is a very solid target in sport or fighting in general.

I don't know about your eye, but just getting hit there at all hurts like a b!tch. How about this? Assume that there is such a point that causes some kind of pain in your face when struck (other than normal pain from an eye jab). Since you won't ever be that accurate in real life, just jab at the eyes with your fingertips. It works anyways, and who knows, you might just get lucky and do to them what happened to you.

The vagus nerve is in the neck. In real life, you just target the neck in general. You don't need to hit a particular nerve to get the desired result. A closed windpipe works just fine too if you have the means, mentality, and justification to do it. Trying to hit a small point (if in fact you can even see it) just slows you down.

As for the knee paralysis, that's just weird.

[eXcessiveForce]

The knee thing is weird but it is scientifically documented. I already knew about it before the incident.

and i'm all for the smash bash approach to martial arts.

I love kicking the Common Peroneal. I also like hitting the femoral artery.

I like Brachial stuns which work very well.

Hitting small points can be a pain. the eyes are small enough but you can use the shin to hit the common peroneal, you can use a slap, a back fist or a hook to hit the brachial which causes both hands to drop if hit hard enough.

The vagas nerve is only on one side of the neck, but I like hitting the throat too. I'd rather punch the throat than the head any day. (screw knockouts and go for the kill )

my point is, it may not be all B.S. it may not be practical but it may still be valid. I don't know if they teach to kick the common peroneal in Dim Mak, but obviously it works so I'm curious what other spots may be able to be available to adaption to other techniques.


I once saw someone talk about Cuz Damato (sp) tysons first coach. They mention the use of pressure point training. It might have all been crap I don't know.

But if I could use a combination of a Thai kick and a couple punches and get a knock out most of the time simply because of the combination I'd definately be interested in learning it.

I don't believe in magic either but how can one absorb what is useful if I am not educated in the subject matter.

If something works I am sure there is a scientific explanation for it. The trick is finding it.