Internal Martial Arts

[chris davis 200]

You seem to prefer internal martial arts to sports systems like MT and BJJ. Have you fought (either in the ring or on the street) a lot of people who do the more hardcore sports-oriented systems besides MT and BJJ, especially Western boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, shootfighting, or vale tudo? Forgive my skepticism, but I can't really see myself defeating a muscular, experienced boxer/kickboxer/MMA fighter with tai chi or ba gua.

I have trainined with a western boxer (semi proffessional) and he has never had the upper hand. He was so impressed that i am now showing him some stuff. But he freely admits that what he does is a SPORT - not a fighting Art. Working the door you come up against alot of Kickboxers and western boxers, none really pose a problem - even the huge ones!! If your not there they cant hit you at the end of the day! and you cant build muscle on certain places, like your knees, groin, throat etc! I have fought Modern JuJutsu styles and have trained in Judo, Traditioal JuJutsu and others. As to why i think the internal arts are so good - it would take me so long to describe it that i cant!

I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm conflicted about the TMA vs. modern martial sports issue, and whether TMA techniques are less practical. You said you felt the internal martial arts were excellent systems because they have good power and body alignment. If you could go into more detail about how you use these aspects in fights, I would appreciate it. Thanks.

It is my expreience that most modern systems have taken out techniques that they feel are useless. This is a bad thing to do. Not all techniques have a practical application in the real world but this is not their purpose.

This 'redundant techniques' are designed to mainly teach principles, of movement, of positioning, of striking angles etc. the modern fighters that have changed the traditional techniques did not recognise this 'hidden' learning and so there art is ultimatley less effective. The principles make that 'redundant technique' applicable to ANY attack! this is a far more valuable lesson than trying to make a defence against every conceivable attack, and hoping they will all come out when the time is right.

As far as alignment is concerned i will talk about body positioning very briefly.

When the kickboxer fights somone, their weight is very boyant and bouncing, they assume that the attacker is infront in the main.
If we take ba gua - this person is routed to the ground while still remaining extremely mobile, this allows them to throw the kick boxer with ease. Ba gua also allows you to attack someone standing directly behind you. the circular movement of the strikes and throws mean that huge centrifulgal forces generate alot of power.
The movement of ba gua will circle the kickboxer as he attacks, ba gua spirals directly towards the kickboxer extremely quickly ending up behind the boxer, so that he cannot see the opponent and his forward based attacking is now redundant, they are helpless to throws and strikes to the spine etc. This is a very simplistic and inadiquate description of ba gua in combat but i cant really go into it too deeply. You will not see many internal stylists slugging it out most bouts are finished quickly.

This is BK frantzis' first experience of ba gua with the renound master Wang Shu Jin.

I was nineteen then, a recognized young karate champion, and had brought with me a traditional gift of respect for Wang: a substantial amount of high-quality ginseng. At our initial meeting, Wang did not hesitate to express his low regard for karate, telling me in no uncertain terms that, "karate is only fit for fighting old women and children." As karate had been a large part of my life and my passion at the time, this off-hand remark insulted me to the core. I was forced to swallow my indignation, though. In our ensuing sparring, Wang defeated me thoroughly on every occasion, tapping me lightly at will all over my body to demonstrate his easy circumvention of my defenses. Despite my best efforts and despite Wang’s enormous girth, his ba gua chang enabled him to effortlessly evade all my blows and end up behind me at will.
To graphically show me there was much to learn, he allowed me, after several days of study with him, to strike him with full power anywhere on his body. I put all the force at my command into these strikes, but they might as well have been the blows of a three-year-old. I kicked him in the knees and groin without effect, hit him in the neck and elbowed his ribs. Like many ba gua masters, he had the ability to absorb blows without injury. When I kicked him in the shin, my foot hurt long afterward. When I drove my fist into his belly, it felt as if the blow had broken my wrist. Wang would often tap me on the head during sparring just to demonstrate how easy it would have been for him to demolish me.

Hope this helps.

Cheers
chris

[ryanhall]

To graphically show me there was much to learn, he allowed me, after several days of study with him, to strike him with full power anywhere on his body. I put all the force at my command into these strikes, but they might as well have been the blows of a three-year-old. I kicked him in the knees and groin without effect, hit him in the neck and elbowed his ribs. Like many ba gua masters, he had the ability to absorb blows without injury. When I kicked him in the shin, my foot hurt long afterward. When I drove my fist into his belly, it felt as if the blow had broken my wrist. Wang would often tap me on the head during sparring just to demonstrate how easy it would have been for him to demolish me.

Give me a break . Sorry for the lack of courtesy on that one, but this is just silly. Next time I run into a ba gua master, I'll just kick him in the balls and he can tell me how it feels. I'm sure he'd appreciate that. Thirdhand martial arts stories about "ancient masters" are a dime a dozen. "He was undefeatable!" "My master is the greatest of all time!" "Nobody can hurt him!" "My sensei is better than your sensei!" Let's get serious for a moment here.

Working the door you come up against alot of Kickboxers and western boxers, none really pose a problem - even the huge ones!!

You must be one bad mother f*cker if nobody can ever pose a problem for you. Real life isn't necessarily that easy. Go read a bit about Geoff Thompson.

Come on, Chris. Let's live in reality.

[chris davis 200]

Give me a break . Sorry for the lack of courtesy on that one, but this is just silly. Next time I run into a ba gua master, I'll just kick him in the balls and he can tell me how it feels. I'm sure he'd appreciate that. Thirdhand martial arts stories about "ancient masters" are a dime a dozen. "He was undefeatable!" "My master is the greatest of all time!" "Nobody can hurt him!" "My sensei is better than your sensei!" Let's get serious for a moment here.

LOL - there is alot of this sh!t around i agree. I will source a video of him getting smacked around without getting hurt. there are a few online. Do a search.

You must be one bad mother f*cker if nobody can ever pose a problem for you. Real life isn't necessarily that easy. Go read a bit about Geoff Thompson.

although i think that is quite funny i never said that nobody poses a problem for me now did i!!! What i said was that these people didnt. I have read geoff thomsons 3 second fight stuff and have found many of his theories on fighting similar to high level internal arts. Look at erle montegues sudden violence tapes i think you will be suprised.

Working the door you come up against alot of Kickboxers and western boxers, none really pose a problem - even the huge ones!!

What i ment was that my experiance is that these guys fight to a different set of rules. If i was to stand there and slug it out with them i would be knocked out very quickly. But i dont. and they are not prepared for that. I am not a bad mother etc i just know that if you take a persons fighting theories away, they dont have fighting ability anymore and there moves are redundant. Grappleing a boxer generally works, BJJ uses this.

I am not making out to be as solid as you think, these guys were normally drunk and i usually had back up, both of these things are very relevant.

BUT i have sparred with a kickboxing instructor friend of mine and he could not compete effectivley because he has never trained to fight against someone that is constantly entering past his attacks and taking his balance or for someone striking him in the back and neck.

I have a great respect for MT, BJJ, western boxing etc, but know that they are mostley fighting sports. against most styles they are good, against some they are not. IMO

Come on, Chris. Let's live in reality.

Thanks for the advice but maybe, your idea of reality and mine are different, i have trained in many styles and respect them all. They all have something to offer. You dont understand some things, no need to dismiss them as unreal.

I am not here to change minds just to tell you my experiences and opinions.

Cheers
Chris

[chris davis 200]

http://www.moneynets.net/wushu/video/wangshujing.wmv

Here is one, not that great, but i will try to find more!

cheers
Chris

[terry]

You can count me in the skeptic category. I have seen too many charlatans to be otherwise.

Nonetheless, I have run into a couple of situations over the years that astounded me. One was Dan Inosanto launching a finger jab at me from 6 feet away, putting his fingers in my eye (without hurting me) and then asking, "Are you wearing contacts?" I wouldn't have believed it if it hadn't happened to me. Another was seeing Ajarn Chai cut a bee in half in mid-flight with a 10 foot bullwhip. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it. But it happened.

As far as pressure points, I have seen 'em, felt 'em. They hurt. But I have never seen anybody fall down dead from 'em. In my book they go into the following category:

Effort/time required to develop: High
Effort/time required to maintain: High
Probability of failure: High
Place to use: An auxilliary option to intensify a bread and butter technique (one that is easier to pull off in the 1st place). But then if you've basically already got the guy there is a lot of stuff you can do. See also, sauce for the goose.

My perception is that a couple of internal arts think they're the only people that know about pressure points. There is a story I'd like to relate to you on that score. Once, at the Smokey Mountain Camp, Pendakar Paul de Thoaurs was describing what will happen to your opponent when you use your finger to hit him in exactly the right place on the neck. "It will cause a temporary loss of consciousness." Ajarn Chai leaned over to Guro Dan, both of whom were spectators at this event, and murmured, "We use the shin to do that."

T

[BlackMaskX]

How do IMA artists fight groundfighters?

If internal martial artists can successfully fight kickboxers, Thai boxers, and western boxers by circling around them, how do they fight against BJJ practitioners and other grapplers? I read on one tai chi website that tai chi doesn't do any groundfighting. The site said something like good stand-up stylists shouldn't get taken to the ground in the first place. That's probably the strategy that many kung fu and karate practitioners relied on when they were beaten by BJJ practitioners. BJJ, along with MT, is widely considered the best one-on-one art. So, my questions are:

1. Basically, how would an internal martial artist go about fighting a competent groundfighter, especially a BJJ expert?

2. Should internal martial artists cross-train in groundfighting systems?

[chris davis 200]

I have personally trained in traditional JJ so i have a grounding in Grappling. There ARE ground fighting techniques in ALL three intenal martial arts. Mainly Ba Gua though. but they are quite harsh - such as pulling the testicles, tearing the windpipe, driving fingers into the eye sockets etc. This is so that you are not on the ground for very long and the opponent is finished quickly.

Most of the standing techniques in tai chi are applicable from a grounded position, but as you say the general assumption is that you should be taken to the ground.

With arts such as Karate, TKD etc, they make this assumption without any thought to how to defend against being 'rugby tackled' down or thrown. In my experience the internal arts do look at these attacks and do have effective defences based around body movement.

Whether you should cross train? this is a question only you can answer and is dependant on you motivation for training. Do you want to be a good fighter, is that on the street, in the ring? the two are very different and that can be lost sight of sometimes.

You can count me in the skeptic category. I have seen too many charlatans to be otherwise.

About dim mak? Chi? or internal martial arts?

Cheers
Chris

[BlackMaskX]

What is "chi?"

Chris, can you tell me about your experiences with "chi" and tell me what it is? Many internal artists say that you can build "chi" with special exercises in the dan-tien and concentrate and release it with devastating force in a fight. According to these people, "internal exercises" that build chi will allow you to become stronger than muscular boxers/kickboxers that lift weights, etc. Is this even remotely true, because I find it very, very difficult to believe.

Other people say that "chi" simply implies good body mechanics, and every aspect of "chi" can be explained through modern biology and physics. Do these guys have more of the right idea?

[ryanhall]

Many internal artists say that you can build "chi" with special exercises in the dan-tien and concentrate and release it with devastating force in a fight. According to these people, "internal exercises" that build chi will allow you to become stronger than muscular boxers/kickboxers that lift weights, etc. Is this even remotely true, because I find it very, very difficult to believe

It's not even remotely true, and if a serious boxer/kickboxer came and asked them to prove it, I am sure that they would decline. How did people start believing these 'martial myths' anyway?

[chris davis 200]

regarding chi.

I personally believe that this is the animating principle of a human. It is the energy that triggers body function and is slowly being descoverd by science. Bear in mind that scientists have no idea what the majority of the Universe is made of, and we are talking huge amounts of matter and energy that cannot be detected, so detecting a subtle energy in one human is pretty hard!!(copper wall project has tried).

I have personally felt and can express Fa Jing, (explosive power), This is to do in the main with body mechanics.

In internal arts, the power of strikes, throws and combat in general is more to do with body mechanics and force vectors. Masters have such an accute sence of the direction that force is travelling in that they are able to defeate that force with ease, via redirection etc.

There is a tai chi saying ' defeat 400pounds with 4 ounches'

This is where alot of the myths come from, because the interal masters of old tended to fight to a different set of rules than the external masters, and tended to win, people somehow thought that the masters must have had a mysterious power.

I do believe that at a very high level of profficiency chi can be used in combat to protect the body against strikes and to express in attack. This is only my opinion. I also believe that very very very few people are at this level.

I do not thinkk that chi is necessary for the internal arts to be successfull. Their body mechanics are enough.

It's not even remotely true, and if a serious boxer/kickboxer came and asked them to prove it, I am sure that they would decline

Wang shu jin (ba gua master) went up against Jack Dempsey, and beat him with ease. He also let him strike him FULL power in the stomach with no effect. Is this chi? i dont know, but the internal arts seemed superior on this occassion.

Other people say that "chi" simply implies good body mechanics, and every aspect of "chi" can be explained through modern biology and physics. Do these guys have more of the right idea?

I think this is what most people are doing and i think that this is what you will mostly see, i certainly go with the body mechanics, if after years of training i get some other abilities then fine, but i do not put my faith in them from the outset.

I also believe that there are peole that can do strange things!

cheers
chris

[Kingston]

Some people can do things that are incredible to me. I hope no one is that ignorant to think that science has solved all the worlds mysteries, and that there is nothing left. Science has always been known to change what it views as fact, and it will keep changing. Science has not reached all things yet, half of what is accepted as scientific fact is based purly on theory. Fact is just the most widely accepted answer.

[Kingston]

i would consider myself a sceptic to most things......lol im a realist with vision.

[eXcessiveForce]

I think the root of chi is belief. if you tell someone you are going to stick them with a red hot piece of steel like a fire place poker, and you show them the hot piece of steel. then blindfold them and stick them with a piece of ice they will blister like they had been subjected to high heat.

Why, because the mind can make the body react without the stimulus.

If your mind tells your body it can do something it can. If the mind tells the body it cannot do something there is no way that it can do it.

There has been quite a bit of scientific study on chi. the conclusion that i have seen the most is "we don't know"

acupuncture works of chi energy "theory" and had demostrated results that are scientifically valid. Who knows if in the future they may come up with some definitive proof or whether chi exists or not.

The question is does it matter. Effectiveness is the key. If a system is more effective with chi and without it. who cares. Train with what works for you.

[ryanhall]

Well said, EF.

Chris,

Wang shu jin (ba gua master) went up against Jack Dempsey, and beat him with ease. He also let him strike him FULL power in the stomach with no effect. Is this chi? i dont know, but the internal arts seemed superior on this occassion.

How do you define defeat? Did this guy supposedly KO Dempsey--I would find that extremely hard to believe. Please substantiate this if you will. A link to a reliable page? There are a lot of stories floating around, and I don't take any of them at face value. That said, I still don't really believe in the combat utility of internal martial arts, but it is possible that this story is true. As for my comment, it was in reference to the belief that your 'chi' will make you stronger than a muscle-bound athlete--it won't. As far as hitting the ba gua guy in the stomach goes, it really doesn't mean anything. A strong person can take a full power punch to the guts if they see it coming and have time to prepare for it (in a match or a fight you probably won't see the one that hurts you). You'll also notice that he didn't let Dempsey hit him in the jaw or head. Jack used to knock people out with his jab (using the drop step), and I don't see Mr. Internal standing up to a head shot.

[Guest]

"I think the root of chi is belief. if you tell someone you are going to stick them with a red hot piece of steel like a fire place poker, and you show them the hot piece of steel. then blindfold them and stick them with a piece of ice they will blister like they had been subjected to high heat."

No they won't. More myths.

Ryan, we need a Myth Moderator. It could be something automatic, you know, like how certain swear words won't come out without ****s in them?

But we don't have to use that symbol. For example, when someone used the words "ki", "chi" or "internal killer energy" etc. it could automatically be replaced with "bollocks alert! bollocks alert!". And when they say "some sad old bagua bastard beat Jack Dempsey" it could translate into "I am the biggest and most stupid liar in the world".

What do you say?