Is There Any Difference Between Jeet Kune Do And Jun Fan Gung Fu ?

[akja]

Originally posted by shasan
Jeet Kune Do is the whole philosophy of a style without a style. But having a 'no style style' was probably a little hard without actually having some techniques. Bruce Lee happened to pick up a lot of techniques from Gung Fu.

Saying that JFGF (a style with fixed techniques) MUST be the basis of JKD is a contradiction in terms.

If you read Bruces writings he contradicted himself quite a bit. JFGF techniques are only "fixed" in the sense that they are executed within "JKD's Concepts."

JFGF under Bruces original intentions was the foundation which he taught Jeet Kune Do. Through time he "changed" his intentions. Jeet Kune Do has evolved to less and less Jun Fan which is not a problem in the least bit as long as the "original concepts" are in tact.

Theres too many people that don't understand the concepts and beleive they are practicing JKD because of a few words like "the style of no style."

I only know what was passed to me and what works for me and what I've added to make it my own.

Really there is no right or wrong but to think that one could teach themselves JKD correctly is off base a bit. I would like to see them try and teach someone "their" JKD.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Re: You think you know more then you do...

Originally posted by Skull X22


Phhhhhh!

If you think that JKD isn't Kung Fu, then your dumb. A Kung Fu style is different from another Kung Fu style. Like when you see Jet Li fight, then you can say "That aint kung fu, he doesent do anything from what we do!". Well, There is a huge difference from example Southern Shaolin WuShu and Tumbling Quan! Jeet Kune Do is the same thing. That it doesent look like the Kung Fu you are used to doesent mean that it isn't Kung Fu! Sure, It isn't anything like other styles of Kung Fu, But it is still WuShu. Since Bruce Lee was an Kung Fu artist, he made he's own style. Becous when you are a Martial Artist, You always find bad things about Martial Art styles. That way you wanna fix it, right? But you can't fix a style that allready exist. That's why you make one up!

First,
"Jun Fan" and "Jeet Kune Do" do not mean the same thing at all, and are completely different words in the two languages you mentioned.
As Akja already said, "Jun Fan" is Bruce Lee's original Chinese name. It has nothing to do with any martial art whatsoever.

"Jeet Kune Do" means way of the intercepting fist. (It's interesting that "do" is a Japanese word. At least in this romanized spelling.)



As far as the "kung fu" aspects of things. "Kung Fu" means roughly "hard" or "dedicated" work in Chinese.
Many people can exhibit "kung fu" in the Chinese working class.

Doctors can have good "kung fu."

Carpenters can have good "kung fu."

School teachers can have good "kung fu."

So in this sense, you can compare just about anything to "kung fu." .......but hardly anyone would argue that a doctor teaches anything resembling a combat art.

Ryu

[akja]

Re: Re: You think you know more then you do...

Originally posted by Ryu (JKD?)


First,
"Jun Fan" and "Jeet Kune Do" do not mean the same thing at all, and are completely different words in the two languages you mentioned.
As Akja already said, "Jun Fan" is Bruce Lee's original Chinese name. It has nothing to do with any martial art whatsoever.


Ryu

Here you go RYU:

http://oakland.jkd.com.hk/

Scroll down 5 links on the left and click the certificate link.
Besides being Bruces real name, the martial art of Jun Fan Gung-Fu came from his early days when his school was called Jun Fan Gung-Fu Institute.

No matter what the name was then, today Jun Fan Gung-Fu refers to that timeline of Bruces teachings.

Interesting date on the cert. too. 3/4/1964 is the date that James Lee earned 3rd rank. I'm not if Dan Inosanto even met bruce at that point.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Yes, that's right.

During that time it became the name of his "brand" of kung fu. But "Jun Fan" itself doesn't literally mean anything martial.

Certainly not "way of the intercepting fist" in any language.


Ryu

[ultraphine]

only ever meant to be a concept

The funny thing bout this debate is the amount of misinformation that people manage to digest. Yes jkd is a concept only, however because of bruces impact on the martial arts world of course people are going to emulate him, because of his early training in southern boxing styles mainly wing chun and a bit of tong long, of course this colored his future directions, eg i see alot of people talking about str8 blasts and trapping etc, these are definitely found in most southern styles of boxing, most famously wing chun.

I believe that bruce intended for jkd to be a technique for developement rather than a system of techniques.

But if anyone believes that they can develop their own style without a grounding in a proven art they are kidding themselves.

As for the name jun fan it is just his name however he did call his school in oakland this.

Oh yeah and for the bright spark who suggested that one should see the dragon to get his life story forget bout it, same with lindas book, they are both full of shit, especially the whole account of the fight that took place, i have spoken to three people that were there including the guy who fought him and it certainly didnt go down the way it has been recorded by them, im not insisting that this makes bruce any less amazing, i still think he is the most influential martial artist of the last century but i just think people should study what they are told in a more crucial light

[Nutz]

Re: only ever meant to be a concept

Originally posted by ultraphine
I believe that bruce intended for jkd to be a technique for developement rather than a system of techniques.

Exactly! You'd be surprised as to how many people miss this point. Its also one of the leading reasons there is so much strife amongst the JKD community at large. Many people that do things their way and teach in their own manner often find themselves on the recieving end of alot of ridicule.

The point quoted is also one of the reasons that everyone's way looks different. Dan has a lot of Phillipino MA experience. Larry has a lot of grappling experience. Others have experience in other aspects that may come through in their JKD experience. Don't knock it because it might be different from someone else's JKD. Hell, JKD should be unique to the individual... that's the friggin point--to make it your own so that the techniques used work for you as an individual... not the other way around and trying to get the person to bend to fit the techniques. I still believe many people want this to a certain degree... maily due to the level of institutionalization instilled by other martial arts.

[swan104]

Hey Ultraphine, you met the guy that fought Bruce then? Was it Wong Jack Man? What was his interpretation of the fight?

I personally think its a bit unfair because most of the literature out there turns this fight into a "good vs. evil" battle. In reality, things are a bit more complicated than that.

What were his thoughts on the fight? What's he like as a person etc? Its not my intention to grab dirt on him. I just think it would be good to hear both sides of the story.

[ultraphine]

he seemed like a nice guy, obviously he didnt say much about the fight to me, i was heavily into wing chun at the time, he just told me not to believe everything that u read. I think he was very sick of the whole matter, as he said it was obviously a bigger thing to bruce and co than it was to him, I know that he was pissed off that the movie blamed him for bruces back injury. The thing i liked about him was that unlike alot of the other masters that ive met out there he never claimed to be the best or even better than anyone else. But from what ive heard from people in the internal martial arts world he is very well respected

[swan104]

I think the movie was extremely harsh. It made the guy look like an animal. The fight may have been a turning point in Bruce's life with regards to the martial arts, but it may have just been another challenge to him.

I don't blame Wong Jack Man for lying low and not saying much about the matter. It would seem like a futile attempt trying to challenge someone that some consider as a God.

I do have questions about why they fought in the first place, but that has more to do with Chinese martial politics more than anything.

Welcome to the forum anyway Ultraphine!

[akja]

Re: only ever meant to be a concept

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ultraphine
The funny thing bout this debate is the amount of misinformation that people manage to digest. Yes jkd is a concept only, however because of bruces impact on the martial arts world of course people are going to emulate him, because of his early training in southern boxing styles mainly wing chun and a bit of tong long, of course this colored his future directions, eg i see alot of people talking about str8 blasts and trapping etc, these are definitely found in most southern styles of boxing, most famously wing chun.

I believe that bruce intended for jkd to be a technique for developement rather than a system of techniques.

But if anyone believes that they can develop their own style without a grounding in a proven art they are kidding themselves.

As for the name jun fan it is just his name however he did call his school in oakland this.

Oh yeah and for the bright spark who suggested that one should see the dragon to get his life story forget bout it, same with lindas book, they are both full of shit, especially the whole account of the fight that took place, i have spoken to three people that were there including the guy who fought him and it certainly didnt go down the way it has been recorded by them, im not insisting that this makes bruce any less amazing, i still think he is the most influential martial artist of the last century but i just think people should study what they are told in a more crucial light [/QUOTE

So who are the three people? My Sifus father was James and Bruces student at that time. And you stories don't jive.

http://www.geocities.com/Tao_Of_Gung_Fu/The_Nucleus_Of_Gung_Fu.html

James and Bruce were there and are both dead and Linda Lee was there and there was only a few people present! So who are these people who were "suppossedly" there?

Of course Wopng Jack Man is going top say things after the fact. Thats old news, its been on the net for years.

Do you have anything solid? Or just third or fourth hand 30 years to late crap like the rest?

[ultraphine]

every thing i learned was from speaking to wong, william chen and a friend he had me call who refused to be named, this was in 1987 after i read the article i think ur referring to (the one with the differing accounts in it) as for there only being a few people there that is bullshit from what i understand there were at least 15 people involved,

And yes i agree that all of this stuff has been around for ages but it still dont explain why there are such differing accounts of the fight, and as for wong supposedly telling me stuff after the fact. he wouldnt comment on the fight itself but merely talked about the controversy surrounding it.

Why dont u stop trying to defend a guy who would need your pathetic worship and worry about ur own training?

His memory would be much better preserved with honesty and constructive criticism, actually a dose of both of those things would be great thruout all of the martial arts.

[akja]

Originally posted by ultraphine

Why dont u stop trying to defend a guy who would need your pathetic worship and worry about ur own training?

.

You opened up the can of worms with more hearsay.

My Sigung was Bruces student and friend. Its only obvious who I would beleive.

My training isn't lacking but I find it amuzing when someone tries to use that as a comeback.
Why don't you provide us with a link so that we can see your training since you brought up the subject.
In Austrailia you must have all kinds of 5th generation hearsay about what Happened in Oakland, Ca.

And about William Chen. Are you sure you got the names right? William Chung was Bruces friend. Who is William Chen?

And when was Wong Jack Man in Australia?

Forget the "words of mouth," do you have any proof?
If not then "we" will let it rest. It reminds me of a Gung-Fu grandmaster who swore to me that he saw pictures of the Uechi Ryu guys kickin' Bruces ass all over the dojo. He refused to "prove" that any such pictures existed or who these Uechi Ryu guys were.

Proof is everything, other wise we are on "common ground" and neither is right or wrong.

[gungfuhero]

Jun Fan is the name Bruce Lee gave his system. The system itself changed from time to time with the adding, deleting and modifying of various tools and tactics. In Dan Inosanto's book "Jeet Kune Do: The Art and Philosophy of Bruce Lee," he writes that Jeet Kune Do is matured Jun Fan. Anymore sometimes I refer to what I do as Jeet Kune Do and sometimes as Jun Fan because the two are part of the same whole. Without Jeet Kune Do, Jun Fan becomes stagnent and dead. Without Jun Fan, Jeet Kune Do lacks a platform for development. One aspect is a necessary part of the other.

[Nutz]

Originally posted by gungfuhero
Jun Fan is the name Bruce Lee gave his system. The system itself changed from time to time with the adding, deleting and modifying of various tools and tactics. In Dan Inosanto's book "Jeet Kune Do: The Art and Philosophy of Bruce Lee," he writes that Jeet Kune Do is matured Jun Fan. Anymore sometimes I refer to what I do as Jeet Kune Do and sometimes as Jun Fan because the two are part of the same whole. Without Jeet Kune Do, Jun Fan becomes stagnent and dead. Without Jun Fan, Jeet Kune Do lacks a platform for development. One aspect is a necessary part of the other.

This is a good example of what is often referred to as Classical JKD. This is also a good time to point out the break from CJKD to JKD Concepts, which is the version I fall under. With the concepts, you don't really need any Jun Fan or even and Gung Fu experience. All you're doing with the concepts is applying them to your experiences as a Martial Artist taking what works for you from whatever you may be studying at any given time, flowing from one range or technique to another, and becoming the best fighter you can possibly be (there is more to it than this of course).

[akja]

Originally posted by Nutz


This is a good example of what is often referred to as Classical JKD. This is also a good time to point out the break from CJKD to JKD Concepts, which is the version I fall under. With the concepts, you don't really need any Jun Fan or even and Gung Fu experience. All you're doing with the concepts is applying them to your experiences as a Martial Artist taking what works for you from whatever you may be studying at any given time, flowing from one range or technique to another, and becoming the best fighter you can possibly be (there is more to it than this of course).

What you're saying is that you "use" JKD concepts to "enhance" your martial arts. That does not make someone with no real JKD instruction a JKD practioner in the sense that one would be "borrowing" from JKD. I'm not saying that you were not trained by a JKD Instructor, I don't know you. I'm just saying that those who were not actually trained by someone within the JKD community are practicing "something" that they "call" JKD.

JKD can be many things but there is no division between Jun Fan and JKD. There is no division between the "Original" and the "Concept" teachings. They are one.

It would be a little more clear if some people changed their "definitions" of their art to something like "The Concepts of JKD." Rather than JKD Concepts. Bruce opened the door for "evolution and exploration" within JKD but the "division" brings on the bastardization.