Who did Bruce lee actually fight?

[Thai Bri]

Oh yes!

I bought a DVD today, forget what its called, but it has loads of fights form the movies on it, like Blade, First Blood and some of those Chinese films.

Of course it all isn't real (but the fight in First Blood sure as hell looked it), and there were camera tricks. But the speed of some of those people. They were real fast. If only they could build up a world-wide dedicated following they too could be reviered as unbeatable supermen....

[RobertG]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
Oh yes!

I bought a DVD today, forget what its called, but it has loads of fights form the movies on it, like Blade, First Blood and some of those Chinese films.

Of course it all isn't real (but the fight in First Blood sure as hell looked it), and there were camera tricks. But the speed of some of those people. They were real fast. If only they could build up a world-wide dedicated following they too could be reviered as unbeatable supermen....

You mean Wesley Snipes doesn't have superhuman strength and can't kill vampires?

[Thai Bri]

A Ha! Got you!!!! No one can kill Vampires! As they are already "undead". So there. Don't go making your claims that Bruce couldn't, though, coz he could.

[Pencode]

Wow! You guys really go at it What I notice is that only people who insult and deface Bruce are the ones who never saw him in action. I saw him twice in '64 and '69 when I was in my twenties and have never seen anyone match his level of skill since. Name someone, anyone, since then Hmmmm? At only 135 pounds able to stop a 400lb bag with a kick? shatter 4 one inch boards DANGLING with a side kick, throw punches in thousanths of a second, trap an opponent blindfolded, punch through two to three one inch boards from an inch away, kick people up to thiry feet, cause whiplash to people holding a punching, kick so hard that a bag exploded, do one finger pushups, throw finger jabs so accurately that he could close your eyelids gently, I could go on and on. No one since then...if so where and whom.

The second thing is they want proof, info. Too bad guys, most of the info is gone just like Bruce. Old writers like Alex Block,Felix Dennis, Don Atyeo...can't find...old publishers like Ohara,Wildwood,Bunch,Lorrimer Unicorn Press, Warner Paperback, Dell, etc. discontinued a lot of publications...old Black Belt mags. To own this stuff you have to be my age because it is all gone.

Sorry guys, but you don't have a clue as to what was going on at that time. For starters, because Bruce was the most celebrated martial artist in the world, he was plague by challengers. They came from everywhere. Rival instructors trying to prove that there style was more lethal than Jeet Kume Do. Punks who refused to believe that Bruce's cinematic fights were nothing more than stunts, especially when they saw how small he was. And fighters trying to dethrone the king of kung fu. It's all documented and it was legend at the time that none of the challengers was successful, and that most went home with their tails between their legs.

In fact, one of the first challengers was a master chosen by the Chinese community to represent them Wong Jack Man. He challenged Bruce and demanded rules such as no hitting in the face, no kicking in the groin, some light sparring. Bruce said bullshit, no holds barred. According to witnesses and Linda herself and Wongs people, Wong started running away after about three minutes until Bruce caught him and beat a submission out of him. Another fight was with a Karateka who insisted that karate was not from China and proceeded to whip his ass in lessl then thirty seconds. Bruce was a student at the time in Seattle. Stirling Silliphant has numerous stories of Bruce. Most notable was the story of two stuntmen assigned to work with Bruce. Two big caucasians. Apparently, they saw Bruce's diminuitive size and started poking fun and making sarcastic remarks. Finally, Silliphant suggested that he demonstrate a few of his skills. "hold this shield and I'll give it a little kick", said
Bruce. Without any run up or any thing he kicked guy so hard he flew backward into a pool. The second guy wasn't convinced so he held the shield and squatted down and braced himself good and he got the same treatment. The list goes on and on. Witness after witness. Bob Wall, Linda Lee, Dan, Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Joe Lewis, Fred Weintraub, Wally Jay,numerous outsiders. In China during his filming he was challened everyday especially during the filming of Enter the Dragon. Again the witnesses abound. Guys like Lo Wei, Robert Shaw, Raymond Chow, Andre Morgan, Bob Baker, Peter Chin, Jim Kelly, even John Saxon... all witnesses. One of my favorites is Jhoon Rhee, whom Bruce sparred with on occasion. Jhoon had nothing but the utmost respect for Bruce's skill as a fighter. And then there was Thailand during the filming of The Big Boss in Pak Chong. Challenges everyday from kickboxers.

You see, there is alot more info than you might imagine, only you are all too young too know about it. A lot of it I still have and some of it got "misplaced". The thing is, you have to use some "common sense" and figure it out. If you are considered the ultimate fighter IN THE WORLD, you would have been challenged by everyone and there momma.

[JIMI]

This thread is some funny sh!t. This is why I love this forum.

[RobertG]

Oh, I'm impressed, Bruce kicked a couple of guys into a pool. And puuuuuuuuulease--Bruce did not fight Thai boxers everyday while in Thailand. That would have put an early end to filming. I don't care how good he was--one elbow or knee to the head (and don't give me some crap about how no one could touch Bruce) and the guy is KO'd and wakes up getting stitches.

As for Wong Jack Man, well, Bruce and Linda claim Bruce won handily. Wong Man and another witness claim Bruce had his ass handed to him, all while spazzing out and trying to repeatedly eye gouge Wong Man. Since there are no other witnesses, I imagine the truth is somewhere in the middle. It was likely a draw. Bruce certainly didn't win easily as he claimed because he wasn't driven to abandon Wing Chun and develop JKD until after that fight. It obviously affected him a great deal.

I've never read the karateka story anywhere, but big deal. Who can't be a karateka? It wasn't Chuck Norris, it wasn't Mas Oyama. It was some no-name schmo. Ooo, Bruce beat some no name schmo. He must have been awesome.

And where do you get that stuff about 400 lb. bags? Last time I checked heavy bags are in the vicinity of 200 lbs. There are not, to the best of my knodwledge, 400 lb. heavy bags. And whatever strength Bruce possessed on his kicks, it is matched by the top Thai boxers, Savateurs, etc. of equal size. You can only generate so much power from a certain amount of muscle mass. Bruce did not exceed the laws of physics and did not possess secret form that no one else has discovered. Plenty of guys his size kick as hard as he did.

The other stuff you mention is even more absurd. He didn't break boards without touching them. He did not kick anyone 30 ft. Not on a planet with Earth's gravity. Who cares if he could trap an opponent blindfolded? Trapping is based upoon sensitivity--you don't need eyesight for it. I imagine a number of Wing Chun practioners are perfectly capable of trapping blindfolded. Hell, we do judo blindfolded and manage to throw each other. And I'm pretty damn far from being superhuman. He never kicked a bag so hard it exploded. I'm not even sure that is possible given the nature of the materials of the bag. We'll have to get the input of a materials scientist, but I very much doubt that kicking a leather bag filled with sand with a powerful punch will cause the leather to shear and the sand to explode outwards. Whiplash? Yeah, I get that in BJJ all the time. I'm pretty sure that if an average professional boxer got a clean shot on your chin that you'd get whiplash. One finger pushups? First off, who cares? Secondly, I believe it was a one finger and one thumb push up. Thirdly, plent of people can pull of this little feat. A lot of professional rock climbers can do one finger pull ups. Now try that sometime. I'm pretty damn skeptical of this eyelid bussiness too. Is it possible that people actually closed their eyelids as the finger jab came at them? I think so. You generally tend to blink when something is coming at your eye. Punches in 1/1000 of a second? Whatever. That suggests Bruce could easily throw 1000 punches a second. Think about that for a nanosecond will you? I'll have to look through my physiology books but I think this is faster than the nerve signals travel. So Bruce apparently moved his body without using his nervous system. Right.

As for all the writers and info being gone...ummm, no. That stuff does get archived. Writers have interviewed people who were around Bruce at the time. The information is, in fact, out there. The fact that it doesn't support your recollection of things is besides the point. It probably has something to do with the fact that your recollection of things is supernatural and in blatant disregard for the laws of physics.

[jules]

Pencode,

What I notice is that only people who insult and deface Bruce are the ones who never saw him in action.

OK who is "insulting" BL? And how is he/she doing it? According to your logic if a person does not worship Bruce Lee he/she is "insuting and defacing" Bruce Lee? So we are supposed to just take your word? "because i said so" is the best you can come up with? Give me quotes and links. Actually back up your claims.

In fact, one of the first challengers was a master chosen by the Chinese community to represent them Wong Jack Man. He challenged Bruce and demanded rules such as no hitting in the face, no kicking in the groin, some light sparring. Bruce said bullshit, no holds barred. According to witnesses and Linda herself and Wongs people, Wong started running away after about three minutes until Bruce caught him and beat a submission out of him.

And Wong's camp says it was just a draw. You see the trouble with the "he said, she said, I say" bullcrap?

Another fight was with a Karateka who insisted that karate was not from China and proceeded to whip his ass in lessl then thirty seconds. Bruce was a student at the time in Seattle.

Who was this "Karate Master"? Where was the fight located? Who were the witnesses?

And then there was Thailand during the filming of The Big Boss in Pak Chong. Challenges everyday from kickboxers.

Such as who? The champions?

You see, there is alot more info than you might imagine, only you are all too young too know about it. A lot of it I still have and some of it got "misplaced". The thing is, you have to use some "common sense" and figure it out. If you are considered the ultimate fighter IN THE WORLD, you would have been challenged by everyone and there momma.

There is a lot more hearsay than I have imagined for sure. And common sense tells me that treating hearsay as fat is stupid.

[Domstarr]

Pencode,

Finally someone who knew all the things I said were true. But give up trying to convince idiots like Robert, because they don't care how many people saw Bruce Lee fight, they will still say it didnt' happen. They ask for names, then we give them names and they say they don't believe those people. They want addresses and social security numbers and notarized statements and then they would still try some dumb answers like, he wasn't killed so he couldn't have been in fights, (read idiot Robert's replies) They call it hearsay for one reason. They just don't want to believe. They are probably studying some martial arts where the people they are learning from tell them that Bruce Lee didn't do this or that, so they believe these people. Gee, where is the ir proof? So far after "argueing" with them for a week, they haven't give one single bit, only opinions. Give up trying to convince them, I did. They already believe in their mind what they want and won't change it no matter what they see in front of their face.

[jules]

They call it hearsay for one reason. They just don't want to believe.

Or because it is hearsay perhaps?

They are probably studying some martial arts where the people they are learning from tell them that Bruce Lee didn't do this or that, so they believe these people.

Nope if anything B. Lee is worshiped where i come from.

Gee, where is the ir proof? So far after "argueing" with them for a week, they haven't give one single bit, only opinions.

There is this little thing called the burden of proof when you claim that B. Lee was the greatist and demi-god that you claim he is and we ask you to back it up the bruden of proof is on you.

They already believe in their mind what they want and won't change it no matter what they see in front of their face.

That's what we have been asking! Some proof infront of our faces.

[jukado1]

Bruce Lee, fighter?

Pencode: i saw Bruce Lee also, the first time was at his 1st demo at the internationals, i saw him do one finger pushups, the one inch punch, hit so fast that from 8 or 9 feet away, he could strike and be out before the blocker could move his hand 3 inches to block Bruces punch, i also trained with a gentelman named Joe Lewis during the time he was training with Bruce Lee, and Bruce Lee was more then great, but so are others, and some of the others fought much more then Bruce Lee, was Bruce good, YES, was he unbeatable, no one will ever know, because training and fighting are two different things, just say Bruce was very good and leave it at that. p.s. did he ever FIGHT a top fighter, no.

[Domstarr]

Pencode,

Do you see what I mean? Did you read Jules' ridiculous answer? How many people do you know who got in a street fight know the person's name they fought with? Give up, these guys like Jules and Robert just don't get it.
You tell them Dan Inosanto saw Bruce get in street fights, but they say Dan's a liar. You tell them that Fred Weintraub saw it over and over, but they say he was a liar too. I tell them that I spoke with Kareem when we were riding horses together and that he saw it, but these guys, Jules and Robert, tell me that this conversation never happened even though they weren't even there.
I think you are the smart one because you didn't reply to their ridiculous answers.

[RobertG]

Bruce reality check right HERE.

Squated 95 pounds?! That is frigging pathetic. Don't even tell me he was blowing up 400 lb. heavy bags with his kicks. I can squat 95 on one frigging leg. No lower body strength, mediocre aerobic ability, no fights that anyone ever saw, but he could curl 80 lbs. Big whoop!

JKD is great...I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't think so. I respect Bruce's contribution in that regard. But he was far, far, far from a the best or strongest martial artist ever.

Once again, I'll pose this question--if he was so damn good why didn't he get in the ring and knock Ali, Forman or Frazier out? Tons of $$ and lots of fame. Would have done wonders for his career. For that matter, why didn't he ever get in the ring and fight Chuck Norris or Joe Lewis for real? Why didn't he go to Thailand and beat Thai boxers in real matches? Why didn't he challenge Mas Oyama? I seem to recall that Gene Lebell just picked him up over his head. We know the next move that comes after that if it were a real fight. Lebell smashes Bruce's skull into the ground as hard as he can and sends Bruce to the hospital. He did not even convincingly beat Wong Jack Man in anyone's mind except his own. Wong was so rattled by the supposed ass whooping that Bruce gave him that he showed up to work the next day with a scratch over his eye. Oh, and he showed up to fight after waiting tables for 10 hours, while Bruce was chilling reading philosophy books. The guy never beat anyone who was anyone. Face it. Fanatastic teacher and innovator, no doubt. But the best teachers are not necessarily the best fighters. Bruce was not a fighter. If he was so damn good he would have stepped in the ring with the best guys of his time, not impress them with tricks during demonstrations or sparring. If you can do really do it, then bring it to the ring. Bruce never did. I don't care if he kicked a couple of stuntmen into Sterling Silliphant's pool in Bel Air. Anyone can do that. I don't care if he broke 4 boards. I don't care if he sent guys flying in demos with his one inch punch. What I care about is did he beat the best guys of his era? No. He never even fought them. Why the hell didn't he throw down with Mas? Mas would have been down for it, even if he was 50 or so at the time. I mean if you wanted to prove how good JKD is then you need to prove it somewhere besides the gym right? And not in "street fights" against nobodies that no one seems to recall. You do it in the ring. Bruce did not even beat the best karateka or judoka of his era, much less boxers or thai boxers. For that matter, he didn't go to the Phillipines to challenge any kali/escrima guys. Many of those guys are up for a challenge and would have willingly fought with the so-called greatest ever. I suspect Bruce would have wound up very dead. So give up the damn mythology. Its a joke. Why can't we respect the guy for his teaching, for his ideas, and, yes, for his movies? He doesn't need to be the best fighter of all time--and he wasn't.

[Pencode]

Oh well,I tried

Thanx Dommstar for the reply. And Jukado1, yes,
Bruce did fight top fighters... three of them in fact, really stand out and they all said the same thing, Bruce was untouchable.

You know Dommstar, these guys remind of how ignorant man was back in the day. They would have been the guys screaming that the world was flat not round. That you have to bleed a person with leeches to remove the "bad blood". People with moles have the mark of the beast. Performing magic tricks came from the power of the Devil. Leprosy only happens to people who are bad. That there is no cure for the plague. That guys like Gallileo, Carver, Bell, Einstein, Newton, Tesla, Beethoven, Bach, Torvalds, Franklin and others were not great because there were no witnesses to their feats or discoveries and that nobody challenged them...Yeah right...Gallileo was thought ot be a "coook". Fleming was called crazy for thinking that a mold could kill bacteria(penicillin). But you know.. whatever.

I admit I was wrong about the 400lb bag. It was a 200lb bag made by Bob Wall especially for Bruce. Bruce was quoted to say that if he could stop that bag after it was swung that he could knock down a 400lb man. My bad...at least I can admit when I am wrong unlike others here.

What is unknown to these guys is that biographers need permission from the holders of the estates. Many do not give permission...from fear of exploitation. Like I said I have a lot of stuff you just cannot find anymore at all. I lost a couple books written by Dan and hate myself for losing them. Dan had them removed from the public. I found one in an auction but they wanted 500 bucks for it. I like Bruce but not that much. Unfortunately, these guys think I am... as one guy said...privy to this info. I am not privy, I consider myself lucky for having this stuff in my possesion... try finding it in a library... good luck. Take it easy bro.

[jules]

Originally posted by Domstarr
[B]Pencode,

Do you see what I mean? Did you read Jules' ridiculous answer?

Please quote the answer that you think is ridiculous.

How many people do you know who got in a street fight know the person's name they fought with?

Again i have asked for the names of famous martial artists that he as actually fought

Give up, these guys like Jules and Robert just don't get it.

Oh i "get it allright". I get how you restort to pathetic tactics when you have nothign to rebutt with.

You tell them Dan Inosanto saw Bruce get in street fights, but they say Dan's a liar. You tell them that Fred Weintraub saw it over and over, but they say he was a liar too. I tell them that I spoke with Kareem when we were riding horses together and that he saw it, but these guys, Jules and Robert, tell me that this conversation never happened even though they weren't even there.

Excuse me who are you for us to "take your word for it"? Ok i saw bruce lee get his ass kicked. I have no proof but take my word for it

I think you are the smart one because you didn't reply to their ridiculous answers.

So basically you don't a rebuttal to logical questions.

[jukado1]

who did Bruce Lee fight.

Pencode: who were the three fighters that Bruce fought? and no, i don't mean sparring with one of his students, the best fighter that Bruce ever sparred with who wasn't one of his fulltime students was Louis Delgado, he never did anything more then do drills with Joe Lewis, and Mike Stone and they were the best fighters he worked with, o, maybe Joey Orbello, and that is sparring, not fighting. and no i don't think that Wong Man Jack is a top fighter. simple fact, FIGHTERS FIGHT, Bruce let Joe and others carry his banner. Heilo Gracie proved what HE could do in public forums, with people that were trying to beat him, could Bruce have beaten him? my opinion, yes, but we will never know.
PLEASE understand i do not mean to disrespect Bruce, but facts are facts.