are fly kicks useful for self-defence???

[Damian Mavis]

Uh.... whazat?

Damian Mavis
HonourTKD

[darrianation]

variations of Flying Kicks are usefull in an actual fights in a Follow-up attacks only..... and it is not recommended in a Primary Attacks........

but, it is a very good Flying Kicks in a Finishing Moves

Yah, about as useful as a hernia...

[sherwinc]

So would this be a flying kick or a jump kick?

closer to jump kick, since it involves to step at least 1 then attack......

[Hwa Rang]

ITF generally calls jumping kicks fly kicks as well. So what does everyone think about jumping kicks then seeing we have another question?

[Thai Bri]

Damian, Morris dancing is a silly olde English folk dance were men with bells on trot around like fairies.

I haven't done that, but still feel able to comment on its effectiveness as a fighting art. Do you get my point?

[Damian Mavis]

Your logic is flawed, I can't look at a car and say it is a horrible airplane.... it's not the same at all. If talking about a dance that someone is claiming is an effective martial art then ya you can start to make judgements. Certain techniques are continually bashed by people that can't do those techniques or do not want to invest the time in them to learn them effectively and to sooth their egos they just discount the technique completely. It happens on this forum all the time and it's so silly. Everyone wants to think that whatever limitted knowledge or experience they have personally is all that anyone needs. It makes them feel better about themselves, hell knocking someone else to feel better about yourself is ancient and as old as time, humans will always be prone to do it I guess. People need to get over themselves and open their minds. I have trained and continue to train in every martial art I can get my hands on, my mind is completely open. And I have a big ego too just like everyone else, I just try to control mine.

Besides those bells sound lethal! Don't knock what you don't understand! heh.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[osopardo]

'smatter o' fack...

Morris Dancing has it's roots in the fighting arts. And outside o' the British Empire it's mos' prevalen in my ancestral stompin' grounds, Catalonia (Spain).
Bells is just part o' it, they also wield sticks and clubs which they swing at each other with a wreckless abandon reminiscent o' Michael Flatley gettin' mugged in a parking lot by an "ethnic" streetgang after a particularly bad performance of "Lord of the Dance".

[Damian Mavis]

Oh my god I knew it! Maybe that will be my next martial art.....

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Thai Bri]

Its frightening stuff. Damian, I take your point about comparing apples with oranges, but still know beyond doubt that you do not have to study a technique to know whether or not it is effective.

Take two twin brothers. Teach one of them how to do a right cross, and the other how to do a jumping kick.

Guess which one will be able to effectively apply that technique first? The puncher will be able to apply it in days, maybe even hours. The kicker? Well, we're talking years.

And, of course, the puncher will ALWAYS have a far far higher percentage success rate.

So it doesn't take a genius to figure out which is most effective. In fact it is a little daft to spend the years learning the kick, only to then admit it isn't that good.

I'm sure people can do these brilliantly, and can even do them in competition. But even this is rare, and that is in competitions that have rules that more easily enable their use. In the streets it is tantamount to suicide, despite what happens in films.

I think this is a rational argument against them, and is not just the rantings of someone trying to slag others off in order to feel better about themseleves.

[Damian Mavis]

You're right, the effective kick takes a long time to become realisticly usable, whether on the street or in the ring. Remember the good ol days when people trained all their lives to become masters of a martial art and they were like super heroes? That is pretty much the way it is, you want fast street defence then learn how to punch without breaking your hand on someones face and there you go! You want more in depth knowledge and training well then you gotta put in the time.

Most people DO NOT put in the time, they try a technique out with a few months (if that) training and then write the technique off as unusable since they're uncoordinated and unskilled asses can't do it right and use it realisticly. I've seen flahsy kicks used on the street effectively twice and used one myself once, knocked him out cold. Was he a BJJ champion or a muay thai god? How the hell do I know, I was still standing and he was not.

This can go in all directions, it's not just the boxers and muay thai guys that are used to easy to learn techniques that get discouraged trying something more complicated so never learn it right.... I see plenty of traditional ma's and TKD guys that try out muay thai or grappling and give up right away because it is not what they are good at and think it must be useless since they can't get it right away. Hell my own stubborn students back in canada would give me attitude (or try) when I introduced them to things non TKD oriented, my black belts couldnt pick it up right away so got frustrated and tried to write the techiques off as useless.

Yes some people can pull them off brilliantly, but you are being silly if you think it's just in a point sparring competition. My point is, very few people put in the time to not only learn techniques such as these realisticly, but to learn how and when to use them in conjunction with the rest of their arsenal for street defence or full contact fighting.

If I was a non martial artist wanting to go into full contact fighting fairly quickly or wanted fast effective street defence because I had limitted time... then I would stick to a few basic techniques and make them instinct, I wouldnt bother with most of the things I have learned over the past 14 years. I'm a career martial artist, I've got the time to bring all kinds of techniques to a realistic level, most people do not.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[sherwinc]

But did you not just tell me about the great "flying kicks" of kung fu?

my only example to present to you about the great flying kicks of kungfu is to watch a movie and instructional films of Bruce Lee and that is the most good example of kungfu flying kicks........ since all kicks, flying kicks that Bruce Lee shows are all found in KungFu and that is what KungFu is all about.....

Note:
a flying kick with both open palms, like a whirly flying bird......

[sherwinc]

You freggin idiot. You first call me "ignorant" because the "flying kicks" of "kung fu" do not start with a running jump. I then asked you whether the kicks that you described to me was a "flying kick'" or a "jump kick". You told me that it was a jump kick.

sometimes RULES are not entirely correct, it depends upon where is the location of the target, needs RUNNING to execute jump/fly kick if it needed.......

[darrianation]

You're right, the effective kick takes a long time to become realisticly usable, whether on the street or in the ring. Remember the good ol days when people trained all their lives to become masters of a martial art and they were like super heroes? That is pretty much the way it is, you want fast street defence then learn how to punch without breaking your hand on someones face and there you go! You want more in depth knowledge and training well then you gotta put in the time.

Most people DO NOT put in the time, they try a technique out with a few months (if that) training and then write the technique off as unusable since they're uncoordinated and unskilled asses can't do it right and use it realisticly. I've seen flahsy kicks used on the street effectively twice and used one myself once, knocked him out cold. Was he a BJJ champion or a muay thai god? How the hell do I know, I was still standing and he was not.

This can go in all directions, it's not just the boxers and muay thai guys that are used to easy to learn techniques that get discouraged trying something more complicated so never learn it right.... I see plenty of traditional ma's and TKD guys that try out muay thai or grappling and give up right away because it is not what they are good at and think it must be useless since they can't get it right away. Hell my own stubborn students back in canada would give me attitude (or try) when I introduced them to things non TKD oriented, my black belts couldnt pick it up right away so got frustrated and tried to write the techiques off as useless.

Yes some people can pull them off brilliantly, but you are being silly if you think it's just in a point sparring competition. My point is, very few people put in the time to not only learn techniques such as these realisticly, but to learn how and when to use them in conjunction with the rest of their arsenal for street defence or full contact fighting.

If I was a non martial artist wanting to go into full contact fighting fairly quickly or wanted fast effective street defence because I had limitted time... then I would stick to a few basic techniques and make them instinct, I wouldnt bother with most of the things I have learned over the past 14 years. I'm a career martial artist, I've got the time to bring all kinds of techniques to a realistic level, most people do not.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

I think when it comes to street fighting, self-defense, or personal protection (or what ever people are calling it these days). We have to take into consideration high percentage techniques versus low percentage and the risk versus benefit.

There are certain techniques and tactics that have higher percentage of effectiveness than others, while some may work at times for certain individuals, those same techniques may also fail more often for many others. Should we base the effectiveness of any techniques based on what a few individuals can do? Should we base the effectiveness of any technique because they work for you in the dojo, against cooperative partners and under somewhat controlled circumstances?

There are also techniques that are safer for the user to use than others while some may put the user at greater risk. What we know about fighting is that the environment, the person, or persons we are fighting, and the circumstances can be very unpredictable. We also know the best-laid plans often fall apart because things don’t go the way that is optimal to our plans. In other words our attacker or Murphy’s law just won’t cooperate to make our fight plan run smoothly.

Because of stress, fear, and adrenal dumping, some of our techniques will not be as precise as we may like, in fact some of our tools may not be readily available when we want them.

Techniques that involve precise execution, exact timing, and laser targeting accuracy are often the first tools we loose. Techniques that involve spinning, leaving the ground, or both can often lead to disaster, even if you are good at them. You can easily loose your footing, or have you kick caught, or be caught from behind while in mid spin, non of these are desirable if you want to survive. The benefit to such techniques may be high but the risks do not warrant their use.

There may be times when these techniques can be used in certain situation or under specific conditions but these are far and few between.

I say leave the jump, flying, and spinning techniques as well as most fine motor skilled techniques at home, and stick with easier, safer, gross motor skills to do your fighting in the real world.

[Damian Mavis]

My point was, with the time commitment, you could make a low percentage technique a high percentage technique for YOU individually. I would not recommend to anyone that they should use a spinning kick in a street fight. The reason things like spin kicks get a bad name (even though they are used effectively as fight stoppers occasionally by skilled individuals) is because oafs that can't do em realisticly try them and show how badly it can be done... but in arrogance and ignorance they blame the technique and not their lack of skill. I've got a lightning fast spinning hook kick with knock out power... I've been training it for 14 years, my friend has been training it for 20 years and his is even better. Without that kind of time put in.... it's probably a bad idea to include it in your arsenal.

I personally teach street defence techniques that are gross motor skills only, simple and effective and brutal and easy to remeber and execute under pressure... along with teaching the right aggressive "go for the kill" attitude necessary in a all out panicy fight. But for me personally I know what I can do so include other ranges and techniques I wouldn't suggest to anyone else.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Thai Bri]

Damian, for me self defence is the biggest priority. I understand that you and others may be different.

But, again for me and people like me, which is most efficient. Spending 10 years learning a difficult technique that is not only hard to perform, it also puts me at risk when I use it, or spending 10 years at a much easier technique that puts me at no danger when I use it?

I guess we have different goals, and theres nothing wrong with that.

Anyway, flying kicks are discriminatory. Because fat bastards like me can't get off the ground anyway.