are fly kicks useful for self-defence???

[darrianation]

My point was, with the time commitment, you could make a low percentage technique a high percentage technique for YOU individually. I would not recommend to anyone that they should use a spinning kick in a street fight. The reason things like spin kicks get a bad name (even though they are used effectively as fight stoppers occasionally by skilled individuals) is because oafs that can't do em realisticly try them and show how badly it can be done... but in arrogance and ignorance they blame the technique and not their lack of skill. I've got a lightning fast spinning hook kick with knock out power... I've been training it for 14 years, my friend has been training it for 20 years and his is even better. Without that kind of time put in.... it's probably a bad idea to include it in your arsenal.

I personally teach street defence techniques that are gross motor skills only, simple and effective and brutal and easy to remeber and execute under pressure... along with teaching the right aggressive "go for the kill" attitude necessary in a all out panicy fight. But for me personally I know what I can do so include other ranges and techniques I wouldn't suggest to anyone else.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Damian, I understand your point, and don’t get me wrong your point is valid and logical, but my point is, it’s still a risky technique to use regardless of your proficiency in it in the dojo or training hall.

How many times have we seen top level competitors slip/trip/or fall after executing one of these type of kicks? In the ring you fall the ref jumps in and separates the fighters to allow the fallen guy to get up to his feet in safety, but in the street…..your head can be used as a battering ram against the cold hard curb. Also in the street there are uneven surfaces, wet, muddy, or slick surfaces. Also adrenalin and fear are different in the street than they are in the ring making our movements less precise, creating even more risk of falling.

Definitely there are a certain (but small) population that can pull this off on a somewhat high percentage, but it is still risky and those people are probably the exception to the rule.

[Thai Bri]

Its easier for a small fry like Mavis. A gust of wind and he's airborne.......

[Broadsword2004]

Well me, personally, I practice jumping and flying kicks for fun. But I would never use them for fighting.

What I find is that most people cannot stand it if you say jumping and flying kicks are mostly performance or agility-training techniques. To them, the techniques HAVE to have fighting application somehow.

But history has proven that dancing and fighting arts are oftentimes very cross-combined. Dancing and fighting are humanity's oldest forms of physical expression. Both involve coordination, stamina, physical agility, etc...so some serve as ways to hide the other or even to combine training.

But I mean, to me, I see nothing wrong with considering flashy kicks martial-performance techniques. They are techniques for performance that sprung off of martial arts. What is wrong with that??? The thing is they don't belong to any dance. They are just flashy kicks done by the martial artists that are within the martial art, but are not necessarily used for fighting application. But to "martial artists," that explanation is unacceptable it seems. Those techniques are part of the martial art so they have to have application somehow.

I am a performer at heart a good bit. And I love the guts out of flash, and being able to perform high, flashy jumping kicks does require coordination, skill, agility, physical strength, etc....it is not something for pure weakling idiots. But they are not fighting techniques per se.

So I mean whether you do pure self-defense or flashy stuff or even both, both require a strong, flexible body and mind. Personally, I think a lot of those techniques sprung up because martial artists living in mountains and such decided on turning their fighting arts into performance arts as well, to develop health and agile bodies and such and also just to spice up training a bit.

Also, do not forget, pure self-defense training will not give one a body for the self-defense. One must do external strength and conditioning exercises for that. Acrobatics and jumping kicks, while totally flashy, can be fun ways to help with that kind of training. And then there is the very traditional training as well, such as calisthenics and weights and all that.

But for some reason, "martial-performance" artists find it incredibly difficult to grasp that what they are practicing is not a martial art. It may be grounded in martial arts and from martial arts tradition, but it is not martial arts. You should read the wushu articles in some kung fu magazines; these top wushu performers claiming that wushu (performance wushu I mean) "is too" a martial art. It is not; it is a martial performance art that is based off of traditional martial arts. And that IS what it is. They took the best moves and forms from Chinese martial arts and combined them with the best gymnastics and acrobatics moves.

I would consider a professional football player to be more a martial artist then any wushu performer who just does performance wushu. Football players are very muscled up, but they are very fast runners, they are tough, have a iron determination, they practice throwing the football a lot (though I read one guy said if you want to fight good, don't practice throwing a lot, don't know if that is true, but it could apply to javelin throwing I am sure, or grenade throwing), and they also practice "real" martial arts a lot so they can knock a guy out of the way. Martial artists are who often teach them how to do such stuff.

One martial artist who did so was George Chung. And he is cool because he knew real martial arts, for fighting, but he also was known for his super flashy airborn kicks and acrobatic skills. So he was both a martial artist and martial-performance artist.

But I mean, to me, I think one can practice jumping kicks for fun and to aid in their self-defense training, and be proficient in them too, but still be proficient in reg. real self-defense fighting. But I would definitely not consider flashy jumping kicks applicable to fighting.

There is no street encounter you will come across in which a jump spin hook kick, or jump spin crescent kick, or flying side kick, or whatever, will really work. If that indeed really was the case, police officers I am sure would have higher physical-fitness standards and be taught those techniques!

The most I can think of for a flying kick to really work would be if a group of horse-mounted soldiers were riding slowly through a narrow rocky mountain trail and you were hidden, and then, with a group of fellow guys, you ambushed these horse-mounted troops by suddenly appearing out of nowhere from behind rocks or whatever and leaping up and POW! knock them down. That might work, because the troops are caught off-guard and are on a narrow trail where you can hide easily. Also, if the trail is slanted upwards, then it would be easier to get airborn to hit the troop on his horse, because you'd be jumping from in front of the troop most likely anyway, so you'd be higher.

[Damian Mavis]

Broadsword, you missed the point too, why would cops be taught a technique that takes 10 plus years of training to get to an effective street level? If you put in the time, great maybe you will find a use for it when the opportunity presents itself like it did for me. Otherwise teach those cops how to brutally and effectively defend themselves in a life and death situation with very simple techniques so that after thier 2 month training course they can survive a little better than before.

Thai Bri, yes yes... I too feel that jumping kicks are discriminatory, even though I am not being discriminated against by said techniques I still feel moral outrage at their discrimination of the majority of North Americans and feel that someone must put an end to their evil. Would you like to sign my online petition that I will send to all human rights organisations world wide? It will be titled "Jumpkick disabled discrimination act" (or "angry fat bastards want to jump too!" as we nicknamed it around the office)

Now then, self defence is my main concern too. But martial arts is so much bigger than that to me. I want to learn everything and as a result have put tons of time in to all kinds of things that I wouldn't suggest to someone else for street defence. Mastery of a technique means instant, fast, hard, completely balanced and low risk, if you can't do it like that then work on it and forget it in full contact ring fighting and the street. I vaguely talk about jump kicks but a jump kick can be a millimeter off the ground, that makes it very fast and less risk of mistakes, I would see no reason to jump higher than a millimeter, you get the same torque and mass behind the kick. The kick I used on the street was not jumping, just spinning hook kick (I think you guys include all jump/spin kicks as the same). The kick I used in muay thai to knock out my opponent was a very small jump spinning sidekick, small jump but tons of power. I say again, I don't suggest to people to use techniques like that, just pointing out that if you put in the time they can come to a less risky more realistic level. I've met THOUSANDS of people practicing spin and jump kicks... only a handful have worked them up to a realistic level.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Thai Bri]

And don't forget. The more techniques you know, the less chance you have of pulling them off when ya need em.

[Broadsword2004]

Damian Mavis, no I didn't miss the point, but I think I didn't explain myself enough. I know what you meant; what I meant is if there were encounters in which jumping kicks proved to be the best solution, and there were a LOT of these encounters, then I am sure police would be trained in jumping kicks. This is pure fantasy of course, but I am just making an example. Like you said, since there are much simpler techniques for handling an opponent, jump kicks aren't needed and they probably won't work half the time anyway. But if said fantasy world existed and jump kicks were best for a lot of encounters, I am sure they would be taught to police forces.

My point was, however, that indeed that is NOT the case, so in reality, jump kicks are just good for performance or cross-training for agility more or less.

But what is this about 10 plus years of training!?! It doesn't take 10 plus years of training to get effective jump kick skills. More like 3 years of hard training. I know of some guys who started martial arts at like 17 and started flashy stuff at like 22 and are flying all over and throwing verticle side kicks at like 25. But a person who undergoes decent training shouldn't take 10 plus years to get decent jump kicks.

That is a pure myth that in order to be throwing high kicks and jump kicks, that you have to have been training since you were a little kid. Unless you're like 30 years old or way overweight, you can start at 20 or 23 or 24 and be throwing cool kicks if you train hard.

[Damian Mavis]

Ya that's true, just not many people train hard like you are talking about, most people put in one hour a day a few times a week if that. But being able to pull off flashy kicks isn't what I meant either, I looked really cool 10 years ago, I could do then and can do now really flashy cool looking stuff.... but the truth was my speed, precision and power had years to go to get to the level they are at now.

Some people train hard and or just plain learn faster, all the guys I know (only a few) that can knock a guy out with a spin kick faster than I can blink have been training that technique for 10 to 20 years. I see alot of guys that can do the same technique but under pressure they have no power and no precision or balance and fall on their ass or miss or leave themselves way open. I started TKD when I was 17, not a little kid, and now I'm 31.

Anyway, I'm just saying having jump kick or spinning kick skills doesn't mean they are at the same level of the other guy who has the skills but with power, precision and control of balance under pressure. Might look the same on the movie screen, but they will feel completely different under pressure.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[darrianation]

[QUOTE=Broadsword2004]

But history has proven that dancing and fighting arts are oftentimes very cross-combined. Dancing and fighting are humanity's oldest forms of physical expression. Both involve coordination, stamina, physical agility, etc...so some serve as ways to hide the other or even to combine training.

Yah, just look at kung-Fu and disco or gymnastics.

I would consider a professional football player to be more a martial artist then any wushu performer who just does performance wushu.

Football's forearm shiver, Hockey's body check, or the rugby shoulder check all awsome self-defense techniques.

[sherwinc]

Well me, personally, I practice jumping and flying kicks for fun. But I would never use them for fighting.

What I find is that most people cannot stand it if you say jumping and flying kicks are mostly performance or agility-training techniques. To them, the techniques HAVE to have fighting application somehow.

i used jumping / flying kicks 20% in a sparring match.....

but.......

now i truely know now that majority of the martial artists claims that flying or jumpings kicks are not applicable to a real fighting......

[Broadsword2004]

Ya Damian I see your point there, that is true, you can within 3 years of good training be throwing skillful spinning kicks and such, however, being able to throw a spinning kick accurately where you can knock a guy out, takes lots more time and practice more time.

Spinning kicks I believe can knock a guy out; a jump spin hook kick smashing through someone's jaw with the heel of your shoe would really do damage. The problem with those kicks is being able to deliver the kick accurately during the fight (as you may not see any opportunity or get knocked over).

[Thai Bri]

Theres a massive difference between doing a technique and applying it......

[Broadsword2004]

Yep absolutely.

Sort of lie with math. Doing advanced math is different than actually APPLYING the advanced math for real-world problems.

[Ming]

What about something like a roundhouse kick to a jump spinning back kick? I've used those before and they seem to work pretty well without leaving myself open.

I new btw so please don't give me too much heck if it's not too much trouble. I'm just here to learn as much as I can to be informed.

[Damian Mavis]

Hi Ming, welcome. We are duscussing the realistic application of jumping and spinning kicks on the street, not sparing.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD