Why do sports TKD participants don't keep hands up?

[CrashOverride]

It is only in WTF sparring where tkd competitors keep there hands down and the reason i see for that is so the judges can see a clean hit/score so they can add points....If they keep there hands chest height then you cant really get a clean hit and then no body would score anything but in ITF sparring there is none of that if you dont keep your hands up your dead its the same in my class we have to keep our hands up we are told to its just for wtf comps where they are kept down although that can come at an advantage.You can learn how to dodge the attack rather than blocking it or needing to guarding it what so ever but the fact remains its only in wtf where we keep hands down anything else and your dead

[dodgeduckdodge]

It is only in WTF sparring where tkd competitors keep there hands down and the reason i see for that is so the judges can see a clean hit/score so they can add points....If they keep there hands chest height then you cant really get a clean hit and then no body would score anything but in ITF sparring there is none of that if you dont keep your hands up your dead its the same in my class we have to keep our hands up we are told to its just for wtf comps where they are kept down although that can come at an advantage.You can learn how to dodge the attack rather than blocking it or needing to guarding it what so ever but the fact remains its only in wtf where we keep hands down anything else and your dead

Under the threat of knockout (and potentially death) you see boxers demonstrate their superiority (like Ali) by dropping there hands on a regular basis. Their body movement is so good, they can evade the scoring/knockout blow, while landing such blows on their taunted opponent.

Because the type of sparring in the ITF is secondary, and, if you only practice this type of sparring, your skill and that of your other ITF opponents will always be inferior to those who also work on Shihap limited sparring (WTF). This is why you feel dropping your hands is a mistake, and for you and your peers, it probably is as you use this secondary method as your main defense and you can do that as you are not under the purposeful threat of knockout. A knockout in the ITF would be an accident, or penalty.

The only sparring you currently see in WTF competition is a special type of sparring from the Kukkiwon curriculum called Shihap Kyorugi. Kukkiwon has 17 different types of sparring in it's curriculum, of which this is just one type.

This type of sparring is catagorized as "limited sparring" and stresses the attacker with limited option to attack an easily defended "limited" target area, which forces the attacker to develop a great evolution in primary skills in order to defeat the opponents defenses.

Limited sparring characterized by the following:

FULL FORCE BLOWS ~ THREAT OF KNOCKOUT

With this dynamic, the fighter must perform under great stress.
- knockout by full force kick to the head is allowed, is automatic win
- TKO (technical knockout) by full force kick or punch to the body is auto win

LIMITED TARGET AREA

Body: approximately 1 foot wide by 2 feet in circumference
Head: approximately 1 foot wide by 1.5 feet in circumference

LIMITED ATTACKING

- only full force PRIMARY striking techniques can be scored to body & head

-Kicking: front~round w/instep, side~back w/sole, axe~hooks w/sole to the
body and head.
note: push~cut kicks do not score, but are used to control match

-Punch: straight punch to the body knocking opponent off their feet
note: punches mostly do not score. However, they can be painful
and can take the fighting will from your opponent, and can
used to control distance

LIMITED EVASION~COVERING~BLOCKING/JAMMING

- evasion techniques are PRIMARY (best) to avoid a scoring attack.
- covering and blocking/jamming techniques are SECONDARY (2nd best) to
avoid a scoring attack.

Shihap Kyorugi that you see in the Olympics is designed to hone the primary skills of self defense.

The other 16 types of sparring found in the Kukkiwon curriculum are designed to apply secondary and primary techniques in an unlimited variety of self defense theories, using limited force contact.

With this in mind, once a fighter has developed a very high level of the PRIMARY evasive skill - via footwork/stepping/body movement along with superior timing and distance judgement, it is not longer necessary to depend on inferior secondary techniques of constantly hold their hands up to cover and block.

You see this all the time in other forms of PRIMARY TECHNIQUE martial arts like boxing, kendo, fencing and even grappling arts have a similar situation.

This is why ITF competitors kicking and punching skills are secondary to that of current and past WTF competitors.

This is also why ITF never allowed WTF competitors to enter and fight ITF sanctioned events, while all the time, ITF competitors have always been welcome in the WTF competition pipeline.

Of course this is all about to change as WTF is in the process of accepting ITF sparring competition as an additional sparring event at all of it's 182 Member National Association, 5 Regional and semi-annual World Championships.

However, Kukkiwon already has ITF's competition sparring in it's curriculum, and has since it's founding in 1972.

Best Regards,

Alcohol

[Piston]

With this in mind, once a fighter has developed a very high level of the PRIMARY evasive skill - via footwork/stepping/body movement along with superior timing and distance judgement, it is not longer necessary to depend on inferior secondary techniques of constantly hold their hands up to cover and block.

You see this all the time in other forms of PRIMARY TECHNIQUE martial arts like boxing, kendo, fencing and even grappling arts have a similar situation.

This is why ITF competitors kicking and punching skills are secondary to that of current and past WTF competitors.

Best Regards,

Alcohol

Is this what they tell you as a WTF competitor? That once your good enough to dodge some attacks you don't need to block at all? Thats just fucking dense.

You have to be some kind of arrogant bastard to actually believe that you don't need to have a guard. No-one is good enough to dodge every attack an equally skilled competitor throws at them. Boxers and fencers actively don't have a guard? What a load of hot air. Kendo I don't know about but I'd imagine the first thing on a swordsman's mind is not being stabbed by the other guy.

Perhaps you believe this because more people get knocked out at WTF competitions? This might be because they eat more knock out kicks on the chin...but if they had a guard?

To barefaced claim that WTF competitors are better than ITF competitors because you choose not to have a guard speaks of incredible arrogance and ignorance. I'd just read your rather informative post on the Moo Duk Kwan thread and thought "What an intelligent and interesting post etc." Damn. This turned my thoughts around.

You know what the really good guys do? Dodge and hold a guard at the same time.

[dodgeduckdodge]

Is this what they tell you as a WTF competitor? That once your good enough to dodge some attacks you don't need to block at all? Thats just fucking dense.

You have to be some kind of arrogant bastard to actually believe that you don't need to have a guard. No-one is good enough to dodge every attack an equally skilled competitor throws at them. Boxers and fencers actively don't have a guard? What a load of hot air. Kendo I don't know about but I'd imagine the first thing on a swordsman's mind is not being stabbed by the other guy.

Perhaps you believe this because more people get knocked out at WTF competitions? This might be because they eat more knock out kicks on the chin...but if they had a guard?

To barefaced claim that WTF competitors are better than ITF competitors because you choose not to have a guard speaks of incredible arrogance and ignorance. I'd just read your rather informative post on the Moo Duk Kwan thread and thought "What an intelligent and interesting post etc." Damn. This turned my thoughts around.

You know what the really good guys do? Dodge and hold a guard at the same time.

I stated that moving was PRIMARY, covering/blocking/jamming was SECONDARY, go back and read my post again.

As far has how good some WTF fighters are, I guess you will never really know, until you get a set of balls and enter the WTF competition circuit. If that ever happens, let me know.

Alcohol

[Piston]

With this in mind, once a fighter has developed a very high level of the PRIMARY evasive skill - via footwork/stepping/body movement along with superior timing and distance judgement, it is not longer necessary to depend on inferior secondary techniques of constantly hold their hands up to cover and block.

Best Regards,

Alcohol

Just a bit of info for you: Most ITF competitions that "semi-contact" thing goes out of the window. Its an unspoken rule that you hit him as hard as he hits you. So actually we do things just as hard minus the chest guard. I would gladly fight any WTF competitor, if only to punch his face, however the WTF does not have a large presence in my country (UK). I think there are some WTF schools but with no governing body like the TAGB for the ITF. Correct me if I'm wrong its not something I've looked into

[dodgeduckdodge]

Just a bit of info for you: Most ITF competitions that "semi-contact" thing goes out of the window. Its an unspoken rule that you hit him as hard as he hits you. So actually we do things just as hard minus the chest guard. I would gladly fight any WTF competitor, if only to punch his face, however the WTF does not have a large presence in my country (UK). I think there are some WTF schools but with no governing body like the TAGB for the ITF. Correct me if I'm wrong its not something I've looked into

Do you like to punch your partner in the face during forms practice? How about during board breaking? Maybe when you are working to perfect wrist grabs or warm up stretching, it makes good self defense sense to punch your partner in the face as well? Better yet, why not bring a bat to every Taekwondo practice, just to make it real. Ignorance aside.......

The WTF has a large presence in the UK (you are in the UK?)

http://www.fullcontact.co.uk/webs/calendar.aspx

http://www.sporttaekwondouk.staffs.org/index.html

If you are an adult, we can get you some matches with WTF fighters, and we can allow full force punching to the face, and take off the chest guards to allow full force blows to the body as you like, good idea. We can even have it filmed so we can put it on Youtube for review.

What area of UK do you live in?

Kindest Regards,

Alcohol

[Piston]

I currently live in North Wales, however I am moving to London shortly to start acting school. I currently lack a decent training partner, its very hard to find someone whos equally enthused or has the time. It would be awesome to find a good gym/training partner when I move, from any discipline. In fact I would also be looking to try some more MA's when I get down there, good schools are thin on the ground here. Perhaps some boxing or MMA, whilst continuing my ITF TKD training.

[dodgeduckdodge]

I currently live in North Wales, however I am moving to London shortly to start acting school. I currently lack a decent training partner, its very hard to find someone whos equally enthused or has the time. It would be awesome to find a good gym/training partner when I move, from any discipline. In fact I would also be looking to try some more MA's when I get down there, good schools are thin on the ground here. Perhaps some boxing or MMA, whilst continuing my ITF TKD training.

I'm sure in London you will find may opportunities.

[tkd_wrestler]

Quite frankly, I'm not a fan of WTF fighters. I admire their kicking ability but the hands are just way to low. It doesn't matter how good at evading an attack you are, you never know when you'll get caught in the face and every knock out I see in a WTF competition could have been prevented if they had just gotten their hands up to at least shoulder height.

To add a little to that. Most of the martial artist at my school are WTF trained. I've sparred with the best of them at some points in the day and I keep having to stop my leg about an inch from their heads. It's just tactically inefficienty.

[npk9]

I'd have to agree with you TKD. I what prompted me to start this thread wayback in the day was I did a youtube search on TKD and punhc "KNOCKOUTS!!" were posted so I clicked and I was bit disappointed - I mean it did deliver what it posted but cmon now. This guys did even try to block. I know that certain schools of thought follow the offense is the best defence but man - I wouldn't be to all hyped up about knocking out an idiot with his hands down.

[tkd_wrestler]

I disagree. Knocking someone out is fun whether or not they had their guard up.

[dodgeduckdodge]

Quite frankly, I'm not a fan of WTF fighters. I admire their kicking ability but the hands are just way to low. It doesn't matter how good at evading an attack you are, you never know when you'll get caught in the face and every knock out I see in a WTF competition could have been prevented if they had just gotten their hands up to at least shoulder height.

To add a little to that. Most of the martial artist at my school are WTF trained. I've sparred with the best of them at some points in the day and I keep having to stop my leg about an inch from their heads. It's just tactically inefficienty.

So why don't you beat all the WTF fighters and go to the Olympics?

The reason is, you don't know what you are talking about. You never fought a top level WTF athlete. If you had, you would know that it does matte how good you are at evading, just like you would know that if you fought a good boxer, which you also have never done.

You need more experience.

Alcohol

[npk9]

not keeping hands up = STUPID!

Evade all you want, as you have seen in the vids its only a matter of time before you get knocked out.

"I disagree. Knocking someone out is fun whether or not they had their guard up."
TKD - no those knockouts aren't fun. I wouldn't waste my time sparring someone who said they could evade all my headshots . . . WTF thats like driving NASCAR w/o a seatbelt saying my evasion skills are soo good that I don't need to put on my seatbelt on.

[dodgeduckdodge]

evading is important, footwork is very important, but keeping your hands down is stupid.

I've seen some huge knockouts and worse from people not keeping their hands up to guard their heads.

Who?

Alcohol

[dodgeduckdodge]

not keeping hands up = STUPID!

Evade all you want, as you have seen in the vids its only a matter of time before you get knocked out.

"I disagree. Knocking someone out is fun whether or not they had their guard up."
TKD - no those knockouts aren't fun. I wouldn't waste my time sparring someone who said they could evade all my headshots . . . WTF thats like driving NASCAR w/o a seatbelt saying my evasion skills are soo good that I don't need to put on my seatbelt on.

Prove it.

Alcohol