TKD as a kicking art?

[Piston]

Depends which leg your kicking from. In the sideways stance a front leg turning (roundhouse) kick generally will not generate much power, its more like a jab in its usage I feel. The back leg on the other hand will generate plenty of power because you have the rotation of the hips in it. I'm not sure why your friend is leaving his foot out, he should pull it back into a chamber and sidekick you in the gut. The side on stance has many advantages, I'll list em if you cared to be bored as such.

[gabbah]

If you have the side towards your opponent (and thus your feet are inline to you opponent), it must be much harder to deliver power in the round house, and also you have to rotate MORE than when thrown from a typical muay thai stance, don't you agree?
And this would make the kick slower also. Since it has to travel a longer path.

The alternative would be (I guess?) to make it a lot more snappy. Either way, I feel the kick will die on the target, and not continue the rotation all the way around like your typical thai kick?

My experience with TKD style fighters is limited, but when I sparred them, I never needed to worry about roundhouse kicks... only sidekicks, front leg snappy kicks to the head, and spinning kicks.
But perhaps I'm too influenced by the TKD you see on most videoclips, with ppl bouncing and standing sideways, where the kicks snap against the target and then are pulled back fast.

I know about advantages using the sideways stance, sometimes I use it myself in sparring. But then I often change to southpaw, otherwise my front leg would get chopped down, or when I'm boxing "on the inside" I may use a more sideways stance. Then it's a bit too close to land a lowkick.
But still I'm sure you can point out more advantages I don't know about, so please do list them.

[Piston]

If you have the side towards your opponent (and thus your feet are inline to you opponent), it must be much harder to deliver power in the round house, and also you have to rotate MORE than when thrown from a typical muay thai stance, don't you agree?
And this would make the kick slower also. Since it has to travel a longer path.

You misunderstand. With a side on stance as seen in TKD, which foot you have in front and at the back is critical. Kicking from the back leg fully rotates the hips so that they swap positions and turn the entire body of the kicker with it. This is achieved by turning the shoulders first along with the kick so that from the foot to the shoulder its one straight line which achieves greater range and power.

Explaining the difference and the motion is going to be difficult without pictures or a demonstration but here goes. In the front on stance your hips are square on to your opponent meaning you never turn your hips more than 90 degrees to connect. With the side stance you are having to turn 180 degrees. Now you are quite right in saying that it would generate less power but theres a massive IF here. If you were to throw the kick in the muay thai style. That long, powerful, through motion will have lost a lot of force by the time it reaches the opponent and you also have to deal with a significant loss of balance. Therefore it is far better to throw it from, as you say, a front on stance. The difference in the kicks is the snap. Think of the motion of a whip. All of the force of the whipper is concentrated on that one spot on the end of the whip. If he were to swing it like a bat he would achieve very little the opposite goes for someone swinging a bat. So the TKD turning (roundhouse) kick works like the whip gaining extra power from the extra degrees of motion whilst losing very little, if no speed at all. Another thing with this kick is that the kicker does not have to steady himself afterwards because all the force has dissipated into his strike, rather than following through into empty air.

I hope that clears up the kicking motion thing for you. As for the side on stance it offers up a lot less body for your opponent to hit a BIG plus in my opinion, which works well for TKD I think because means your opponent has to reach further to hit you whilst dealing with your feet. It hides your back foot somewhat which is useful because your back foot is your "power foot" or "wellying foot" as I like to call it. Also if I'm on the defensive, which ain't often, you can drop your front hand using your arm to take body shots, but I'm not keen on that. The main thing about the side stance is the chamber, bringing that foot up ready to side, turning or axe kick is useful as hell, it can make some punchers lives a misery. I would only recommend this to those who are very confident in their chamber ESPECIALY against a MT fighter whose liable to catch people in a chamber who are too slow and kick their leg out from underneath them and then laugh.

Hope that clears things up.

[kuk sool won]

you could also add a downwards chopping motion into that. chambering you leg higher than the target and cutting the kick downwards into the leg, this also has a bigger chance of hitting the pressure point in the thigh which leg kicks are aimed at.

If i do use a leg kick from a side stance i often just use it as a step in motion, as i kick i land my leg near theirs and follow it through with some big power punchers, risky i know but defense never wins a fight.

[gabbah]

You misunderstand. With a side on stance as seen in TKD, which foot you have in front and at the back is critical. Kicking from the back leg fully rotates the hips so that they swap positions and turn the entire body of the kicker with it. This is achieved by turning the shoulders first along with the kick so that from the foot to the shoulder its one straight line which achieves greater range and power.

Yes, I think I got that part as far as I can tell. And yes, I was talking about round house from the rear leg.

Explaining the difference and the motion is going to be difficult without pictures or a demonstration but here goes. In the front on stance your hips are square on to your opponent meaning you never turn your hips more than 90 degrees to connect. With the side stance you are having to turn 180 degrees. Now you are quite right in saying that it would generate less power but theres a massive IF here. If you were to throw the kick in the muay thai style. That long, powerful, through motion will have lost a lot of force by the time it reaches the opponent and you also have to deal with a significant loss of balance. Therefore it is far better to throw it from, as you say, a front on stance. The difference in the kicks is the snap. Think of the motion of a whip. All of the force of the whipper is concentrated on that one spot on the end of the whip. If he were to swing it like a bat he would achieve very little the opposite goes for someone swinging a bat. So the TKD turning (roundhouse) kick works like the whip gaining extra power from the extra degrees of motion whilst losing very little, if no speed at all. Another thing with this kick is that the kicker does not have to steady himself afterwards because all the force has dissipated into his strike, rather than following through into empty air.

Right, so here is a clip of how I envision what happens if you try to do the round house "thai style" or whatever:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_oeKfHkQ0oE

So this is the wrong way according to you? I would agree. The guy even has to step out (more into the front stance) to make the kick have any power. he can not actually throw the kick from the side stance.

I couldn't find any footage of how proper TKD round house would look, but I think I understood your explanation in that it's more snappy.
But even that snappy, correct way of throwing it must be noticably weaker than the thai roundhouse. This is because the TKD way of rotating 180 degrees before impact is at the end of the power range when you spin. The thai round house hits the target way before the 180 degree rotation has been taken place, and that point there's still lots of momentum in the kick. Well that's my view on it.

Also, when you reach the target and snap out your foot, the leg is pretty much extended, so the force hits the opponent from the side. This allows him to step through the kick go into punching range...?

I hope that clears up the kicking motion thing for you. As for the side on stance it offers up a lot less body for your opponent to hit a BIG plus in my opinion, which works well for TKD I think because means your opponent has to reach further to hit you whilst dealing with your feet. It hides your back foot somewhat which is useful because your back foot is your "power foot" or "wellying foot" as I like to call it. Also if I'm on the defensive, which ain't often, you can drop your front hand using your arm to take body shots, but I'm not keen on that. The main thing about the side stance is the chamber, bringing that foot up ready to side, turning or axe kick is useful as hell, it can make some punchers lives a misery. I would only recommend this to those who are very confident in their chamber ESPECIALY against a MT fighter whose liable to catch people in a chamber who are too slow and kick their leg out from underneath them and then laugh.

Yes I agree. Although I really must say I don't like the axe kick. You have to hit with the heel for it to do damage. If the opponent moves forward while you kick it does no damage, and you're stuck with your leg on his head or shoulders, and it's easy for him to push you off balance. It's a low percentage attack I would say.

[kuk sool won]

I love the Axe kick WHEN its thrown as a suprise kick or if its thrown to break the guard. If you use it regularly in your arsenal then you're going to get punished, badly.

As for TKD roundhouse it CAN carry just as much power as the 'Thai kick' if not more, its kinetic, but for it to land with more power than the 'Thai kick' you have to be incredibly precise, thats why its seen as weaker than the 'Thai kick'

[gabbah]

I love the Axe kick WHEN its thrown as a suprise kick or if its thrown to break the guard. If you use it regularly in your arsenal then you're going to get punished, badly.

True. But Since it can be used so seldom I just think it's much better to put that time it takes to train that kick into better boxing or roundhouse training... You can add the axe kick when you are really really good at the boxing and round house kicking. Only then is it worth it. :P

As for TKD roundhouse it CAN carry just as much power as the 'Thai kick' if not more, its kinetic, but for it to land with more power than the 'Thai kick' you have to be incredibly precise, thats why its seen as weaker than the 'Thai kick'

Sure, if a TKD starts spinning (which they can do really well) and then throws the thai round house he will part the opponent in two, lol... but that will also be very easy to get away from with footwork (to the side) or easy to block with the shin.
The point I'm trying to make is that if you stand in the front stance you can throw the thai kick hard and fast, with basically no setup. Whereas if you're in the side stance it will either be weak, or it will take longer to do the kick (you need to change your stance first, or the rotation is more making it take longer or be more telegraphed.), depending on if you choose the classical thai kick or the more snappy one I guess.
If this is not the case, I still fail to see how a side stance can provide the same advantage when it comes to the round house in terms of power and delivery speed/telegraphing.

Edit:
By the way, I'm not sure I understood you correctly. What do you mean by "you have to be precise" for a TKD round house to land with more power than a thai round house?
It doesn't make sense to me... we're not talking about where or IF it lands... we're talking about the power in the kick. If it lands a more powerful kick will do more damage, be it a TKD kick or a thai kick...?

[Piston]

Yes, I think I got that part as far as I can tell. And yes, I was talking about round house from the rear leg.

Right, so here is a clip of how I envision what happens if you try to do the round house "thai style" or whatever:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_oeKfHkQ0oE


I couldn't find any footage of how proper TKD round house would look, but I think I understood your explanation in that it's more snappy.
But even that snappy, correct way of throwing it must be noticably weaker than the thai roundhouse. This is because the TKD way of rotating 180 degrees before impact is at the end of the power range when you spin. The thai round house hits the target way before the 180 degree rotation has been taken place, and that point there's still lots of momentum in the kick. Well that's my view on it.

That was one of the poorest roundhouses I've seen in a long time. I mean bad.
Like xXx 2 bad. He stepped into it, didnt turn his shoulders looked like he hit with his shin, just poor.

But your missing the point of the snappy style roundhouse. I think the best analogy of it is thats its a jab compared to muay thai's roundhouse which is more like a hook. The former is used to range-find, damage blood vessels and setup bigger more powerful kicks. The latter is a means of devastation.

Kuk is right in what he says about precision, if I land the roundhouse on your nose or temple you're gonna know about it and this can be quite commonplace.

As a general rule all you kicks should be quickly pulled back, otherwise your opponent will be thanking you for the kind gift of a foot to break. Returning you foot to its original position, bringing it back quickly is the key to having fast feet. Secondly never, EVER, underestimate an axe-kick. You don't only hit with heel you can hit with the sole of the foot which can be just as effective. Axe kicks can be incredibly powerful, they utilise the entirety of the musculature of one leg all focuesd in one little point. I've done more damge with axe kicks (this is with a protective sparring shoe on, in a semi-contact setting) than anything else. In my second ever competition I fought an opponent much taller than myself and thus had to use more length kicks or close him down with quick punches. I performed a rising kick to axe kick combination, he swayed away from rising kick and caught the axe kick full on at the top of his chest. I found out later this cracked his breastbone. The second time I've damaged someone was in sparring, my opponent tried to blitz me with punches, I brought an axe kick around the outside with the sole of my foot hitting him squarely in the face. This floored him and he had to take a few minutes time-out. I found out later from the same person at a grading that I cracked his eye socket.

I'm not boasting here, I'm just telling you what I have learned in my first years of TKD.

[GranFire]

Secondly never, EVER, underestimate an axe-kick. You don't only hit with heel you can hit with the sole of the foot which can be just as effective. Axe kicks can be incredibly powerful, they utilise the entirety of the musculature of one leg all focuesd in one little point.


Only to true....got hit with one one time....it hurt...and it was only for fun!

[lindz]

Try getting an axe/chop kick to the coller bone.

That hurts.

I've never had it happen to me...but it must hurt!

[gabbah]

Well I sparred with this guy who has done TKD for a number of years and had matches in it as well (about 25). He can do the TKD stuff, and sometimes uses the axekick.. but it never lands other than on my gloves, or he hits with his calf since I move in.
This guy aint no chump.. when he uses boxing + thai kicks he fucks me up.
And I should be better at defending what I train at, and worse at TKD stuff. Well, like I said... most of the time I think the axekick is a waste of energy and a risky move, becuause you tend to get stuck with your foot in the guys guard, then he can move in and punch you silly while you're still regaining balance.

I think the axe kick can be good if the guy you are fighting is not used to sparring, and reacts a lot when you kick in jerky fashion.
I think that if the axekick was an effective weapon even against more experienced fighters, muay thai fighters would use it in the ring, simply because it scores. But we don't see that.

[Tom Yum]

I think the axe kick can be good if the guy you are fighting is not used to sparring, and reacts a lot when you kick in jerky fashion. I think that if the axekick was an effective weapon even against more experienced fighters, muay thai fighters would use it in the ring, simply because it scores. But we don't see that.

Its a bit flashy.

Spin kicks work, as long as they are done quickly and are set up correctly.

[gabbah]

Its a bit flashy.

Spin kicks work, as long as they are done quickly and are set up correctly.

Definitely.

[Piston]

I think the key to getting the axe kick to work is to have it come completely out of nowhere. But then you have to be very good to do that. One of my favourite tricks to look like I'm doing a back spin kick but in fact use my back leg as an axe kick. Surprises the hell out of people because they prepare for a long arcing back spin kick, or back hook kic, back kick or even 360 turning kick, but then suddenly there's this horrible feeling on the top of their head....

You say your friends axe kicks keep getting caught in your guard? It sounds like he's "emphasising" the kick wrong. This means the point at which you pull down as hard as possible. If you both of roughly equal weights an axe kick should tear through any guard. Also a tip to you, don't rush into an axe kick for 2 reasons, 1.) You might time it wrong and then suddenly find your nose, eye or section of your forehead has been misplaced.
2.) Its very easy to change an axe kick into another kick IF your friend catches on, you may find yourself running head on to a sidekick.

P.S Oh yeah is your firend getting his axe kick above your head height before he pulls down? Could be his problem.

[gabbah]

I think the key to getting the axe kick to work is to have it come completely out of nowhere. But then you have to be very good to do that. One of my favourite tricks to look like I'm doing a back spin kick but in fact use my back leg as an axe kick. Surprises the hell out of people because they prepare for a long arcing back spin kick, or back hook kic, back kick or even 360 turning kick, but then suddenly there's this horrible feeling on the top of their head....

That sounds cool but also harder to pull off, which means it requires a lot more training than other techniques like a round house. Which also makes it a low percentage technique (assuming same amount of training on all techniques). That's why I feel it's better to put that time into boxing for instance, which is high percentage... But also we're getting into the discussion of TKD sidestance vs frontal kickboxing stance... When you spar with lowkicks, the sidestance is much more vulnerable than the frontal stance I think.

You say your friends axe kicks keep getting caught in your guard? It sounds like he's "emphasising" the kick wrong. This means the point at which you pull down as hard as possible. If you both of roughly equal weights an axe kick should tear through any guard.

Not just HIS axe kick, pretty much ALL who do them... includning my instructors axe kick.. and he's (way) better than me at those kind of kicks (TKD type kicks).
My friend is about my height, but much more muscular, so he weighs more. His punches and kicks are very hard, and he does not know the meaning of light sparring, it's always full out with him, lol. And he shouldn't be doing it wroing, since he was a red belt, kicking black belts asses when he did TKD.

Also a tip to you, don't rush into an axe kick for 2 reasons, 1.) You might time it wrong and then suddenly find your nose, eye or section of your forehead has been misplaced.

This would be impossible since I always keep my chin down and guard up. So if anything, it would hit the top of my head. And that's why I move in, so that I smother that attack and while his fot is coming down from my guard I'm moving in with boxing. If I stand still I move my (10 or 12oz) gloves up high on my head and take the impact on them, but this is last resort. Well actually I move the gloves up high even when I move in.
And just to clearify, when I say "move in" I don't mean RUSH, as that implies almost running into it in an unctrolled fashion. I mean I step in about 30 cm/12 inches never crossing my feet. After that I move in more if I want to box or stay and throw a kick from there.
But if I don't do this, what do you suggest I do?

2.) Its very easy to change an axe kick into another kick IF your friend
catches on, you may find yourself running head on to a sidekick.

You mean he notices I always move in, and performs a feint move? Well, since he uses a square kickboxing stance like me, kicks that require a sideways stance take longer time, I guess that's why he never does that feint. In any case, myguard would catch that sidekick. However, in that case it would still be a good attack on his part because even with the guard up I would be moving into the sidekick, so the impact would be pretty good on my guard.

P.S Oh yeah is your friend getting his axe kick above your head height before he pulls down? Could be his problem.

Yes, and my instructor also. They get the leg high up to get speed in the kick. About 30-40 centimeters (12-16 inches) from my head when they reach the top is my guess.