The Truth Regarding BJJ...

[wardancer]

That is true, CKD.
but guns is big no..no...in France.
However, i live in new zealand now and it is 0130 : 1,10 am
got to go to sleep ..I had a good BJJ training today.
Thanks for your posts. I do appreaciate them
Cheers,

[Creeper]

HI Creeper,
I train in New Zealand, Auckland.
Small country next to Australia.
Our website is www.etk.co.nz

The reason I was asking is becuase my BJJ academy teaches elbows, knees, punches, kicks, and uses a similar style of training in open sparring where one person can kick but cannot punch, the other can punch but cannot kick. It's the greatest thing.

[CKD]

Thats no suprise. You train with Reylson Gracie right? He places a stronger emphasis on vt bjj and sf bjj and little on sport bjj. He is old school bjj, when bjj was much more complete and sport bjj never existed. I even heard he teaches multiple opponent defenses, have you trained that yet? I heard several bjj instructors are coming up with these defenses, De la Riva and Joe Moreira already have there BJJ multiple opponent defense on there vidoes.

[wardancer]

The reason I was asking is becuase my BJJ academy teaches elbows, knees, punches, kicks, and uses a similar style of training in open sparring where one person can kick but cannot punch, the other can punch but cannot kick. It's the greatest thing.

Yes Creeper,
I know the feeling.
I feel sorry for the other guys and think they do BJJ but find out they do train another way.
I read this BJJ posts and expect others to have the same experience!

[bjjbeijing]

I train BJJ as part of my repertoire of martial arts. Unlike most of the students in my class, I’m not into Gracie-worship... I respect them for developing aspects of ground fighting, but the idea of ground fighting has been around forever in small circles. People have been doing MMA and grappling arts in remote corners... The difference is exposure, setting and time.

If you don’t already know, let me spell it out for you — Martial arts is big business. It’s reality TV in an age where people are hooked on “live” media. The Gracies understood this. They knew that as long as BJJ remained a sport in Brazil, it was going nowhere. Their timing couldn’t be better. Several reality-based shows were already in the works — “Survivor” being the most predominant.

To the uninformed, BJJ is seemingly invincible. Afterall, they witnessed a “lanky, hollow-chested, litle guy defeat giants in UFC 1 through UFC 5. The problem is Royce Gracie was NOT undersized in comparison to the other fighters of UFC, nor was he “lanky” or “hollow chested.” He was more likely the most conditioned fighter for that particular event. He stands at 6’1” and between 175-180 lbs... That’s not small. Small is Yuki Sakai from Rickson Gracie’s documentary “Choke.” Small is being 5’6” 130 lb. and defeating guys 6’6” 250 lb. But even Royce knew his role was just to start the fire, and he bowed out when he realized people were catching on. MMA was on the horizon of media entertainment.

Rorion’s vision is near complete as thousands of people flock to learn BJJ. As you probably know by now, America is a favorable environment for Mcdojos, and there are plenty of BJJ Mcdojos out there — we’ve all heard stories or been there, but no one really says anything because of BJJ’s reputation. Don’t get me wrong, I love BJJ for what it is – another angle in the martial arts, but that’s all it really is. I’m reminded of when karate first arrived and everyone believed a reverse punch could kill. Now, I we know there’s no substitution for a jab, cross and hook.

Another problem is that within the long lineage of Jiu Jitsu pioneers, the Gracies have painted a picture of themselves as the major contributors. Jiu Jitsu was mainly a weapons art, so it is hardly true that the Gracies have brought more to the table than anyone else. Yet in all their self-promoting publications, you’ll find excerpts placing them above everyone else. They’ve even changed much of Jiu Jitsu’s history to accommodate their claims. There’s one contradicting idea that is continually forced throughout Renzo Gracie’s book, “Mastering Jujitsu.” In one paragraph, Renzo and John Danaher note that nothing is known of Fusen Ryu Jujitsu or its training methods, then later they explain that BJJ is closer to Fusen Ryu than any other style of Jiu Jitsu.

People are changing. For every BJJ who joins our club thinking he has come to enlighten, we also have others who understand that hard work is second to none. Actually, one of our trainers, Gary Campbell, who is our SD specialist and competes regularly in NHB type events makes it a point to show everyone that NO martial art is complete, not even SD... There are techniques in karate, kung-fu, BJJ and Muay Thai that just don’t work on the streets.

Paul Stevens
Northern Racquet & Fitness Club

Paul,

From a weight perspective, Royce was the smallest fighter in UFC I. Surely you don't think that he was stronger or more physically conditioned than Ken Shamrock? What about Kimo? What about Dan Severn? Royce was 180 pounds soaking wet, and fought some of the biggest, meanest, toughest, and most skilled guys for that time. And if it wasn't for his victories, you wouldn't be practicing BJJ today as just another "angle" in your self-defense training. Gary Campbell, your SD specialist wouldn't even be "competing regularly" in NHB events if it wasn't for Rorion Gracie exposing the vulnerablities of traditional martial arts by starting up the UFC.

As for "Mastering Jujitsu," you really need to go back and read the book carefully. Gracie and Danaher never stated that NOTHING is known about Fusen Ryu and its training methods. The fact that there is an entire section of the book dedicated specifically to Fusen-Ryu and its development should CLEARLY POINT OUT that SOMETHING is known about Fusen-Ryu. Gracie and Danaher state that BJJ is more similar to Fusen Ryu than other forms of traditional Japanese jujitsu because of historical evidence. They have NOT CHANGED any of Jujitsu's history.

The outcome of the challenge match between Kodokan and Fusen-Ryu was that Fusen-Ryu was victorious. The significance was not that Fusen-Ryu won, but rather HOW they won. The fights were won on the ground, with Fusen-Ryu taking the Kodokan fighters to the ground, and applying a submission hold. This is clearly the same adopted strategy that BJJ practitioners employ, is it not? Furthermore, the fact that Kano later approached the Fusen-Ryu school to ask them to teach their ground fighting techniques to the Kodokan further illustrates the importance that Kano viewed ground technique. Kano saw that ground fighting became disproportionate to standup fighting in their tournaments. As a result, Kano changed the rules of Kodokan judo to impose a time limit on groundwork. Pre-WW2 Judo was very different to what you see now the Olympics. It was a totally different game then.

This is what BJJ practitioners have been saying for a long time, that a disproportionate number of fights end up on the ground. Fusen-Ryu practitioners had used that very same strategy from the beginning. Hence, the statement by Gracie and Danaher that BJJ is more similar to Fusen-Ryu than other forms of traditional Japanese jujitsu is indeed accurate.

Train hard.

[pstevens]

From a weight perspective, Royce was the smallest fighter in UFC I. Surely you don't think that he was stronger or more physically conditioned than Ken Shamrock? What about Kimo? What about Dan Severn? Royce was 180 pounds soaking wet, and fought some of the biggest, meanest, toughest, and most skilled guys for that time. And if it wasn't for his victories, you wouldn't be practicing BJJ today as just another "angle" in your self-defense training. Gary Campbell, your SD specialist wouldn't even be "competing regularly" in NHB events if it wasn't for Rorion Gracie exposing the vulnerablities of traditional martial arts by starting up the UFC.

Royce was perhaps lighter than many of his opponents, but he was by no means less conditioned. Physical appearances don't necessarily equal being well-conditioned or fit. I was told at a seminar that before the UFC, Royce trained in weightlifting some, but most of his strength training came from endurance exercises to improve grip, stamina, etc... He was and is NOT the weakling everyone seems to be advertising.

As for "Mastering Jujitsu," you really need to go back and read the book carefully. Gracie and Danaher never stated that NOTHING is known about Fusen Ryu and its training methods. The fact that there is an entire section of the book dedicated specifically to Fusen-Ryu and its development should CLEARLY POINT OUT that SOMETHING is known about Fusen-Ryu. Gracie and Danaher state that BJJ is more similar to Fusen Ryu than other forms of traditional Japanese jujitsu because of historical evidence. They have NOT CHANGED any of Jujitsu's history.

What the book says is that the training methods and techniques of Fusen were not known... What is known is that they utilized ground techniques. That's hardly enough to go by in comparing two distinct styles of jiu jitsu, since many styles of jiu jitsu have ground techniques.

The outcome of the challenge match between Kodokan and Fusen-Ryu was that Fusen-Ryu was victorious. The significance was not that Fusen-Ryu won, but rather HOW they won. The fights were won on the ground, with Fusen-Ryu taking the Kodokan fighters to the ground, and applying a submission hold. This is clearly the same adopted strategy that BJJ practitioners employ, is it not? Furthermore, the fact that Kano later approached the Fusen-Ryu school to ask them to teach their ground fighting techniques to the Kodokan further illustrates the importance that Kano viewed ground technique. Kano saw that ground fighting became disproportionate to standup fighting in their tournaments. As a result, Kano changed the rules of Kodokan judo to impose a time limit on groundwork. Pre-WW2 Judo was very different to what you see now the Olympics. It was a totally different game then.

Winning fights on the ground doesn't mean two styles are the same or related. They may utilize the same idea, but deploy different philosophies or strategies. Wrestling involves ground fighting. Is it fair to say that wrestling resembles BJJ, or is related? You decide.

This is what BJJ practitioners have been saying for a long time, that a disproportionate number of fights end up on the ground. Fusen-Ryu practitioners had used that very same strategy from the beginning. Hence, the statement by Gracie and Danaher that BJJ is more similar to Fusen-Ryu than other forms of traditional Japanese jujitsu is indeed accurate.

The statement is accurate in a generalized manner. If we use this logic, wrestling, sambo and any other ground fighting system would be related to BJJ. Two styles that deploy ground fighting techniques aren't automatically related.

Besides, the truth be told, Maedo was a Judoka and that's where the bulk of his techniques came from. BJJ evolved from Judo... It's that plain and simple.

[bjjbeijing]

Royce was perhaps lighter than many of his opponents, but he was by no means less conditioned. Physical appearances don't necessarily equal being well-conditioned or fit. I was told at a seminar that before the UFC, Royce trained in weightlifting some, but most of his strength training came from endurance exercises to improve grip, stamina, etc... He was and is NOT the weakling everyone seems to be advertising.

Royce is by no means a weakling. What are you trying to argue here? That he was well-conditioned? I agree... Nobody has ever argued that Royce was NOT WELL-CONDITIONED! Everyone knows he was well conditioned, simply because you have to be well-conditioned to hang with a guy like Dan Severn for 16 minutes! Are you trying to argue that he had as much strength as Ken Shamrock, Kimo, or Dan Severn? I would disagree with that. Did he have better conditioning than those guys? Maybe Royce did have better conditioning from an endurance perspective. Maybe he could have outswam, outran or outbiked those guys. Who knows... They weren't in a triathlon. They were in a fight. Weren't you told at a seminar that most of Royce's strength training came from ENDURANCE excercises. That should tell you that his focus was on ENDURANCE and not EXPLOSIVE STRENGTH. Does having great endurance equate to having great POWER? Does a marathon runner have the same explosive power and strength as that of a 100-meter sprinter? No he doesn't! Royce is definately not a weakling, but from a strength perspective, he did not have much to rely in terms of RAW POWER. Just take a look at Ken Shamrock's physique compared to Royce's physique. Who has more muscle? Who has more raw power?

What the book says is that the training methods and techniques of Fusen were not known... What is known is that they utilized ground techniques. That's hardly enough to go by in comparing two distinct styles of jiu jitsu, since many styles of jiu jitsu have ground techniques.

You are absolutely correct. Many styles of MARTIAL ARTS have ground techniques. I'm sure you will agree that ground fighting is not limited to just Japanese Jiu-jitsu. However, knowledge and skill are two separate issues. There are throws in Hapkido are there not? But put a Hapkido practitioner in a Judo tournament and 99 times in 100, the Hapkido guy will get tossed on his head. Why? Because the Judoka spends ALL DAY AND ALL NIGHT throwing, and the Hapkido guy does not. Likewise, if you were to put a MMA guy in strictly a boxing tournament, the MMA guy would most likely get ripped apart! Why? Because the MMA guy has not spent enough time working specifically on only his hands, unlike the boxer who spends ALL DAY AND ALL NIGHT throwing punches. Again, many styles of Jiu-jitsu have KNOWLEDGE of ground techniques, but very few have developed that knowledge into a highly refined skill. Fusen-Ryu, Kosen Judo, and Gracie JJ are specialized ground fighting styles. There are throws in Gracie JJ, but I doubt a Gracie will play the standup game with a Judo guy if he can go to the ground instead. If he stays standing, look for the Judoka to toss Gracie onto his head.

It is clearly stated in the book that Fusen-Ryu practitioners did not want to play the standup game with the Kodokan since throwing was the Kodokan's specialty. Rather, Fusen-Ryu sought to bring the fight to a phase of combat which the Kodokan practitioners had very little knowledge in, ie. the ground! Why? Because Fusen-Ryu did not want to compete in a phase of combat which they knew the Kodokan to be very strong in. This is why they chose to bring the fight to the ground. Had they not been SPECIALISTS ON THE GROUND, it would have been unlikely for Kano to ask for Fusen-Ryu to teach their techniques to the Kodokan fighters. AGAIN, because ground fighting was Fusen-Ryu's specialty, Renzo and Danaher made a comparison that BJJ was more similar to Fusen-Ryu than other styles of Jiu-Jitsu. Why? Because BJJ is also specialized in ground fighting. Other styles may have had knowledge of ground fighting, but they did not make ground fighting their specialty. In this light, the comparison made by Gracie and Danaher between Fusen-Ryu and BJJ is indeed accurate.

Winning fights on the ground doesn't mean two styles are the same or related. They may utilize the same idea, but deploy different philosophies or strategies. Wrestling involves ground fighting. Is it fair to say that wrestling resembles BJJ, or is related? You decide.

Again, I agree with you. A wrestler who wins a fight with GROUND and POUND from inside an opponent's guard is not the same as a jiu-jitsu fighter methodically passing an opponent's guard, gaining dominant position, and then submitting the opponent with an armlock, choke, etc... It is fair to say that there are elements of BJJ in wrestling, and also elements of wrestling in BJJ. But they offer very different approaches to both sport and combat. Considering that Fusen-Ryu practitioners employed a strategy of submission and not ground and pound, would you say that Fusen-Ryu more resembles BJJ or wrestling? You decide...

The statement is accurate in a generalized manner. If we use this logic, wrestling, sambo and any other ground fighting system would be related to BJJ. Two styles that deploy ground fighting techniques aren't automatically related.

Yes, all ground fighting systems are similar in the sense that they are utilized on the ground. They all employ a similiar strategy of using body positioning and body weight to control and pin an opponent. So in that respect, ALL GROUND FIGHTING styles are indeed related by default. Sambo, Judo, Wrestling are all related to BJJ, as BJJ is related to Sambo, Judo, and Wrestling. They are all known as ground fighting styles. What does that tell you? However, different rules have made each style's training methods different, because they all have different criteria for winning. In Judo, the ultimate goal is to get an Ippon, and all the rules of the game of Judo are designed to emphasize achieving victory through Ippon. Wrestlers are hoping to achieve the Pin, both shoulders flat on the mat. BJJ guys are trying to get the submission, to force the opponent to surrender with a jointlock or choke. So their goals are different because they all have different criteria for victory.

Besides, the truth be told, Maedo was a Judoka and that's where the bulk of his techniques came from. BJJ evolved from Judo... It's that plain and simple.

First off, where BJJ evolved from is totally irrelevant to our discussion. It could have came from MARS, it doesn't matter. But since you brought it up... Maeda was considered one of the foremost pioneers of his time in terms of fighting skill. The Kodokan never once officially engaged in ANY vale-tudo style events where punching, kicking, submission, were allowed. Maeda developed many of these techniques over time during his "golden years"... when he was traveling around the world, fighting in full-contact matches. To say that he was taught these techniques by Kano is totally false, and to assume that ALL KODOKAN Judo practitioners were able to fight equally well as Maeda, or had received this type of training at the Kodokan is TOTALLY and COMPLETELY FALSE. That is not to say that MAEDA was the only skilled fighter to come from the Kodokan. A more accurate statement would be to say that BJJ evolved from Maeda and that Maeda was a student of the Kodokan under Jigoro Kano. Even after Carlos Gracie received his training from Maeda, the entire Gracie family went on to further refine and develop the techniques they learned, and added new ones into their arsenal. Are Judo and BJJ similar? Of course they are! Did BJJ evolve from Judo? Sure it did! So what?

I suggest you reread "Mastering Jujitsu" on page 6... Great Person Theory and the development of martial arts...

Two styles that deploy ground fighting techniques aren't automatically related.

So what is the point of bringing up Maeda? I would suggest you actually attend a formal Judo class and see for yourself, just how different the emphasis and training methods are from BJJ.

[pstevens]

Royce is by no means a weakling. What are you trying to argue here? That he was well-conditioned? I agree... Nobody has ever argued that Royce was NOT WELL-CONDITIONED! Everyone knows he was well conditioned, simply because you have to be well-conditioned to hang with a guy like Dan Severn for 16 minutes! Are you trying to argue that he had as much strength as Ken Shamrock, Kimo, or Dan Severn? I would disagree with that.

Boy, you really need to learn to read.... First of all, I NEVER said that Royce was physically stronger than Ken Shamrock or Dan Severn... I said he wasn't the weakling everyone portrayed him to be. Besides, having muscles and being physically strong are two separate issues. Ever hold onto a struggling fish? I'm sure you had more muscles than that fish, but you couldn't hold it still. BJJ guys are training for a different kind of strength. Therefore, your point about Ken Shamrock being stronger as it applies to lifting weights, etc... is irrelevant.

It is clearly stated in the book that Fusen-Ryu practitioners did not want to play the standup game with the Kodokan since throwing was the Kodokan's specialty. Rather, Fusen-Ryu sought to bring the fight to a phase of combat which the Kodokan practitioners had very little knowledge in, ie. the ground! Why? Because Fusen-Ryu did not want to compete in a phase of combat which they knew the Kodokan to be very strong in. This is why they chose to bring the fight to the ground. Had they not been SPECIALISTS ON THE GROUND, it would have been unlikely for Kano to ask for Fusen-Ryu to teach their techniques to the Kodokan fighters. AGAIN, because ground fighting was Fusen-Ryu's specialty, Renzo and Danaher made a comparison that BJJ was more similar to Fusen-Ryu than other styles of Jiu-Jitsu. Why? Because BJJ is also specialized in ground fighting. Other styles may have had knowledge of ground fighting, but they did not make ground fighting their specialty. In this light, the comparison made by Gracie and Danaher between Fusen-Ryu and BJJ is indeed accurate.

Ah, yes... So if I go into a fight and decide to wrestle with the guy, even if I don't know BJJ... Then by wrestling, I'm automatically doing BJJ... That's your logic. By default, I'm doing BJJ by wrestling... Interesting logic.

ALL GROUND FIGHTING styles are indeed related by default. Sambo, Judo, Wrestling are all related to BJJ, as BJJ is related to Sambo, Judo, and Wrestling. They are all known as ground fighting styles. What does that tell you? However, different rules have made each style's training methods different, because they all have different criteria for winning. In Judo, the ultimate goal is to get an Ippon, and all the rules of the game of Judo are designed to emphasize achieving victory through Ippon. Wrestlers are hoping to achieve the Pin, both shoulders flat on the mat. BJJ guys are trying to get the submission, to force the opponent to surrender with a jointlock or choke. So their goals are different because they all have different criteria for victory.

Umm... Yeah, and all martial arts are related by default.... So what? Anyone can make an argument for that, but it's a general observation... However, every style developed as a result of "cause and effect." Simply saying wrestling is related to BJJ because they both fight on the ground isn't an accurate assumption... Please prove that they share the same lineage, or that their techniques developed under the same circumstances... Basically, you've gone back to square one with no proven facts.

First off, where BJJ evolved from is totally irrelevant to our discussion. It could have came from MARS, it doesn't matter. But since you brought it up... Maeda was considered one of the foremost pioneers of his time in terms of fighting skill. The Kodokan never once officially engaged in ANY vale-tudo style events where punching, kicking, submission, were allowed. Maeda developed many of these techniques over time during his "golden years"... when he was traveling around the world, fighting in full-contact matches. To say that he was taught these techniques by Kano is totally false, and to assume that ALL KODOKAN Judo practitioners were able to fight equally well as Maeda, or had received this type of training at the Kodokan is TOTALLY and COMPLETELY FALSE. That is not to say that MAEDA was the only skilled fighter to come from the Kodokan. A more accurate statement would be to say that BJJ evolved from Maeda and that Maeda was a student of the Kodokan under Jigoro Kano. Even after Carlos Gracie received his training from Maeda, the entire Gracie family went on to further refine and develop the techniques they learned, and added new ones into their arsenal. Are Judo and BJJ similar? Of course they are! Did BJJ evolve from Judo? Sure it did! So what?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Ofcourse it's relevant where BJJ evolved... That's the argument here! You're saying that BJJ is related to Fusen-Ryu and you then you turn around and say it's not important?! My God...

HERE ARE THE FACTS:

Kano brought many jiu jitsu stylists into his Kodokan, many of whom came from different JJ styles and backgrounds. The ONLY thing that joined them together was the syllabus that Kano created for Judo.

Kano elimated the strategy of Fusen-Ryu JJ. There's no indication that he kept any of Fusen-Ryu's techniques or teaching methods.

So what is the point of bringing up Maeda? I would suggest you actually attend a formal Judo class and see for yourself, just how different the emphasis and training methods are from BJJ.

What's the point?! I'm baffled by your argument###%*&?????... The POINT IS THERE'S NO CONNECTION BETWEEN FUSEN RYU AND MAEDO. If you can prove there is a connection, then do so. However, all FACTS indicate that Maedo was a student of the Kodokan which did away with Fusen-Ryu.

If Maedo wasn't influenced by Fusen Ryu, then how can BJJ be related? Maedo was trained under the syllabus created by Kano, which didn't include Fusen-Ryu... So please explain to me how BJJ is more related to Fusen Ryu than Judo, as Renzo claims.

Now that I think about it, Renzo's claim is a contradiction of his own belief regarding the origins of BJJ. Renzo dismissed the idea of a centralized theory (that all arts evolved from one location), yet he's saying that BJJ resulted from an earlier style of JJ – Fusen Ryu. This and the FACT that the Gracies continually say that JJ came from India. Quite a stark contradiction.

So far you haven't managed to prove there exists a link between Fusen-Ryu and BJJ, which is the core of this debate... I suggest you do so.

[CKD]

Now that I think about it, Renzo's claim is a contradiction of his own belief regarding the origins of BJJ. Renzo dismissed the idea of a centralized theory (that all arts evolved from one location), yet he's saying that BJJ resulted from an earlier style of JJ – Fusen Ryu. This and the FACT that the Gracies continually say that JJ came from India. Quite a stark contradiction.

So far you haven't managed to prove there exists a link between Fusen-Ryu and BJJ, which is the core of this debate... I suggest you do so.

He dismissed the theory that ALL arts come from one location not that some arts evolved from others. I doubt fencing evolved from kendo or vice versa. They were created different places. They said jujitsu came from India but do all martial arts come from India. No.

[Uke]

Practicing and promoting anything you believe in is human nature, which is why most serious martial artists view their art as a religion. And we all know someone from another religion who constsantly tries to indoctrinate us into their beliefs, which it is no surprise why martial arts appear "cultish" at times.

I have studied BJJ, and I know first hand that it has its place. I would never use BJJ as a sole source. I believe that in a one-on-one bout with someone who clearly is faster and a better striker that BJJ is valuable, but only in a situation where no one else can jump in, like in an elevator, staircase, or even a room or office where there is on the 2 of you. Once a multiple attacker or weapon scenario enters the discussion, BJJ is not a player on the board. No man would go to his back in a crowded nightclub. Nor would he shoot in on a man who wields a knife.

While BJJ is just one dimension of the whole of jujitsu, it definitely has made its mark. However, after studying BJJ I feel its better learned for the purpose of either defending against a BJJ fighter or any grappler for that matter, or for competing in controlled enviroments like MMA tournaments.

If you think I'm wrong, shoot in and take down a friend. He'll no doubt resist and roll over and be put in your guard. Make sure he's armed with a ball point pen. Watch and see how vulnerable you are. Not only to the head but the ribs, legs and chest. The ground techniques are meant to nullify forceful strikes, not weapon thrusts or stabs.

[bjjbeijing]

Boy, you really need to learn to read.... First of all, I NEVER said that Royce was physically stronger than Ken Shamrock or Dan Severn... I said he wasn't the weakling everyone portrayed him to be.

You wrote in your very first post, quote:

The problem is Royce Gracie was NOT undersized in comparison to the other fighters of UFC, nor was he “lanky” or “hollow chested.” He was more likely the most conditioned fighter for that particular event. He stands at 6’1” and between 175-180 lbs... That’s not small. Small is Yuki Sakai from Rickson Gracie’s documentary “Choke.” Small is being 5’6” 130 lb. and defeating guys 6’6” 250 lb.

6’1” and between 175-180 lbs is not a small guy... But compared to what though? The average human being? Sure, that not small at all! But in your initial post, you clearly point out that Royce was NOT undersized in COMPARISION TO THE OTHER UFC FIGHTERS!

I have taken the liberty to assemble for you below, a list of Royce's opponents in the UFC. Please name one fight where Royce would have been considered BIGGER than his opponent. Please name one fighter who Royce was HEAVIER THAN. Please name one fighter who you feel Royce was STRONGER than.

UFC Opponents
Ken Shamrock
Art Jimmerson
Gerard Gordeu
Ishihara
Jason Dellucia
Remco Pardeu
Pat Smith
Kimo
Ron Van Clief
Keith Hackney
Dan Severn

With the exception of perhaps Ishihara, Royce was the smallest man (in terms of weight, they were about even) in the UFC tournament. In almost every single fight, Royce fought an opponent who was stronger, heavier and bigger than him. So how can you say he was not undersized?

The dictionary defines lanky as "tall and thin and having long slender limbs." Lanky does NOT mean "unconditioned or weakling." Would you describe Royce as short and muscular? If you describe Royce's physique as muscular, I think you need to look again. You can call him defined, lean, etc... but muscular is not an accurate description for Royce. Kimo is muscular. Shamrock is muscular.

Lanky is a perfectly accurate description for Royce. He did not have the same muscular physique that Kimo and Shamrock had. And while "hollow-chested" is a misleading term since NOBODY can really have a hollow-chest, it is used as a clever metaphor for a person who doesn't have huge pectoral muscles. But you probably know that already cause you manage a fitness center, right? Last I looked, Royce didn't have huge pec muscles. Weren't you told at a seminar that Royce's strength excercises were designed to build endurance and not strength and size?

You then point out that Yuki Nakai is small (5'6, 130 pounds). Well yes, he's small... Anybody would agree that he's smaller than Royce. But you clearly state that Royce was NOT small when compared to his opponents in the UFC. And then you say that Yuki Nakai is small. Just because Yuki Nakai is small doesn't mean that Royce's opponents in the UFC were not big. The two have no relationship to each other.

Ah, yes... So if I go into a fight and decide to wrestle with the guy, even if I don't know BJJ... Then by wrestling, I'm automatically doing BJJ... That's your logic. By default, I'm doing BJJ by wrestling... Interesting logic.

That's NOT my logic, what are you talking about? Go back and reread what I wrote, and read your own response to my quote... I don't even know how to answer you because I don't know what you're talking about. To say that A is SIMILAR to B is NOT THE SAME as saying A IS B.

Umm... Yeah, and all martial arts are related by default.... So what? Anyone can make an argument for that, but it's a general observation... However, every style developed as a result of "cause and effect." Simply saying wrestling is related to BJJ because they both fight on the ground isn't an accurate assumption... Please prove that they share the same lineage, or that their techniques developed under the same circumstances... Basically, you've gone back to square one with no proven facts.

In case you haven't already noticed, wrestling and BJJ employ some same basic principles in their approach to fighting. In fact, ALL GROUND FIGHTING styles employ these same basic principles. They use body positioning and body weight to pin, control and restrict an opponent's movement on the ground. Why is lineage relevant at all to this discussion? Just because two arts don't share the same lineage doesn't mean that they cannot be similar. You mean to say that two different people in two different parts of the world with absolutely no contact with each other cannot come up with an identical hip throw, or an identical arm bar, or an identical kick to the groin? A hip throw in Mongolia is the same as in India, or China, or Japan, or Brazil, or the USA. How? Why? Because as long as humans only have 2 arms and 2 legs, there will only be a limited number of ways to throw an opponent utilizing the hip. A Japanese elbow snaps just as easily as a Brazilians, snaps just as easily as an American's when the proper leverage and technique is applied. So regardless of who invented the technique or who passed it on to who, humans only have so many ways with which to approach combat. So that means there will always be similarities between martial arts, regardless of lineage. Why were martial arts developed at all? Under what circumstances? Are these circumstances only limited to one region or portion of the world? Again, you must reread Mastering Jujitsu.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Ofcourse it's relevant where BJJ evolved... That's the argument here! You're saying that BJJ is related to Fusen-Ryu and you then you turn around and say it's not important?! My God...

BJJ is related to Fusen-Ryu only in the fact that it employs a similar approach to combat, which is bringing the opponent to a phase of combat where he is unfamilar. From a technical standpoint, it doesn't matter where BJJ comes from because the Gracies and the Brazilians have made so many modifications to it's rules and training methods that BJJ is considered an art unto itself now. And the Gracies have always remained adamant that the sole criteria for inclusion in the Gracie system was efficiency. So old techniques were re-examined and thrown out if they didn't work. New techniques were invented or borrowed from other systems to incorporate into their existing syllabus. So from that standpoint, BJJ is related to many different martial arts. It's not important where it comes from. What's important is its amazing efficiency!

HERE ARE THE FACTS:

Kano brought many jiu jitsu stylists into his Kodokan, many of whom came from different JJ styles and backgrounds. The ONLY thing that joined them together was the syllabus that Kano created for Judo.

Kano elimated the strategy of Fusen-Ryu JJ. There's no indication that he kept any of Fusen-Ryu's techniques or teaching methods.

Again, I would suggest you reread Mastering Jujitsu, where Gracie and Danaher cite clear references to Fusen-Ryu's influence upon Kano and the Kodokan syllabus. Kano did change the rules of Judo to eliminate extended ground fighting. But this was only because he saw that Judo was fought more and more on the ground. In fact, the book points out that pre-WW2 judo, there was a tremendous ground fighting explosion in Judo. It is documented historical fact that the only losses ever suffered by the Kodokan were at the hands of the Fusen-Ryu school. It is also a documented fact that many top Kodokan students began to seriously study ground work after those defeats and Kano requested the help of Fusen-Ryu's Tanabe to teach that syllabus. Even if that were not true, the defeat of the Kodokan at the hands of the Fusen-Ryu school led Kano to conclude that a skilled Judoka should possess both standing and ground skills. If that's not influence, then I don't know what is. Why do you think so many martial artists today study BJJ? Because they saw it's effectiveness in live combat.

What's the point?! I'm baffled by your argument###%*&?????... The POINT IS THERE'S NO CONNECTION BETWEEN FUSEN RYU AND MAEDO. If you can prove there is a connection, then do so. However, all FACTS indicate that Maedo was a student of the Kodokan which did away with Fusen-Ryu.

If Maedo wasn't influenced by Fusen Ryu, then how can BJJ be related? Maedo was trained under the syllabus created by Kano, which didn't include Fusen-Ryu... So please explain to me how BJJ is more related to Fusen Ryu than Judo, as Renzo claims.

Now that I think about it, Renzo's claim is a contradiction of his own belief regarding the origins of BJJ. Renzo dismissed the idea of a centralized theory (that all arts evolved from one location), yet he's saying that BJJ resulted from an earlier style of JJ – Fusen Ryu. This and the FACT that the Gracies continually say that JJ came from India. Quite a stark contradiction.

So far you haven't managed to prove there exists a link between Fusen-Ryu and BJJ, which is the core of this debate... I suggest you do so.

The point is that nobody cares where it comes from. Everybody cares about its effectiveness though... Renzo clearly states that there are SIMILARITIES between Fusen-Ryu and BJJ. He never says that BJJ is a descendant of Fusen-Ryu.

The core of this debate is that you should train harder, and worry less about lineage.

Good day,

Andy

[pstevens]

Lanky is a perfectly accurate description for Royce. He did not have the same muscular physique that Kimo and Shamrock had. And while "hollow-chested" is a misleading term since NOBODY can really have a hollow-chest, it is used as a clever metaphor for a person who doesn't have huge pectoral muscles. But you probably know that already cause you manage a fitness center, right? Last I looked, Royce didn't have huge pec muscles. Weren't you told at a seminar that Royce's strength excercises were designed to build endurance and not strength and size?

First of all, you know what the implications were, so don't play dumb... The Gracies were trying to play up the idea of "David vs Goliath," which is hardly true.

BJJ is related to Fusen-Ryu only in the fact that it employs a similar approach to combat, which is bringing the opponent to a phase of combat where he is unfamilar.

This is the core of your argument... Which is incorrect. Relation implies some sort of correlation in lineage, passage of techniques, etc... So far, you haven't proven that there exists a direct link between BJJ and Fusen Ryu... The statement that Renzo made says, "BJJ is more related to Fusen Ryu than any other style of JJ." How is this so, other than the fact that they may have employed a similar strategy. That's not relative, rather similar.

Wrestling is similar to BJJ in some ways... Doesn't mean it's related. Being related implies have some sort of connection. Therefore, Renzo's statement is completely fabricated with the intent of separating BJJ from Judo, which it derived from. Whether the Gracies accept it or not, judo is the ancestor of BJJ... Unless you or they can disprove that, that is the FACT.

[CKD]

Practicing and promoting anything you believe in is human nature, which is why most serious martial artists view their art as a religion. And we all know someone from another religion who constsantly tries to indoctrinate us into their beliefs, which it is no surprise why martial arts appear "cultish" at times.

I have studied BJJ, and I know first hand that it has its place. I would never use BJJ as a sole source. I believe that in a one-on-one bout with someone who clearly is faster and a better striker that BJJ is valuable, but only in a situation where no one else can jump in, like in an elevator, staircase, or even a room or office where there is on the 2 of you. Once a multiple attacker or weapon scenario enters the discussion, BJJ is not a player on the board. No man would go to his back in a crowded nightclub. Nor would he shoot in on a man who wields a knife.

While BJJ is just one dimension of the whole of jujitsu, it definitely has made its mark. However, after studying BJJ I feel its better learned for the purpose of either defending against a BJJ fighter or any grappler for that matter, or for competing in controlled enviroments like MMA tournaments.

If you think I'm wrong, shoot in and take down a friend. He'll no doubt resist and roll over and be put in your guard. Make sure he's armed with a ball point pen. Watch and see how vulnerable you are. Not only to the head but the ribs, legs and chest. The ground techniques are meant to nullify forceful strikes, not weapon thrusts or stabs.

A friend that is trained in grappling or untrained in grappling? If he is trained in grappling that might happen but if he is untrained then he will probaly end up on his back. There are knife defenses taught in some bjj schools and I actually knew a person that disarmed a person with a knife in his guard by putting him in a kimura and the mad dropped the knife. It is also my experience that the attacker pulls out the knife when the fight starts than during the fight. LOL at Pstevens getting schooled.

[pstevens]

A friend that is trained in grappling or untrained in grappling? If he is trained in grappling that might happen but if he is untrained then he will probaly end up on his back. There are knife defenses taught in some bjj schools and I actually knew a person that disarmed a person with a knife in his guard by putting him in a kimura and the mad dropped the knife. It is also my experience that the attacker pulls out the knife when the fight starts than during the fight. LOL at Pstevens getting schooled.

Most BJJ knife defenses don't work... The best thing to do against a knife is run. If your friend had a guy with a knife in his guard, he was stupid to let him get that close. However, even that sounds suspicious.

There's a BJJ site that shows proper knife defense (I forgot the link)... In the first panel, the assailant draws a knife. In the second panel, the BJJ guy is gone... BECAUSE HE SPLIT.... His point is not to engage a knife.

If you actually believe BJJ can defend knife attacks, get a friend who is untrained in anything and hand him a cardboard knife. Tell him to try at will to slice you. When you're done adding up the scratches, mutliply that by the rage and intensity of a real assailant. You'll get the picture.

LOL... I have to laugh at myself for getting knocked down.. I'm not a keyboard warrior like many of you afterall.

[CKD]

Most BJJ knife defenses don't work... The best thing to do against a knife is run. If your friend had a guy with a knife in his guard, he was stupid to let him get that close. However, even that sounds suspicious.

There's a BJJ site that shows proper knife defense (I forgot the link)... In the first panel, the assailant draws a knife. In the second panel, the BJJ guy is gone... BECAUSE HE SPLIT.... His point is not to engage a knife.

If you actually believe BJJ can defend knife attacks, get a friend who is untrained in anything and hand him a cardboard knife. Tell him to try at will to slice you. When you're done adding up the scratches, mutliply that by the rage and intensity of a real assailant. You'll get the picture.

LOL... I have to laugh at myself for getting knocked down.. I'm not a keyboard warrior like many of you afterall.

Thats the best defense. Running away. But some bjj schools teach knife defenses along with running. I remeber seeing a bjj instrctor teaching how to maeuveur a way from a wall when your opponent has a knife and tries to trap you.