The Truth Regarding BJJ...

[wardancer]

Mr.Myaqi: you are are right on the spot! Keep us posted, pls!

[TylerDurden]

BJJ cannot beat a world class wrestler? Hmmm, so then Nog didn't beat Dan Henderson? Or Mark Coleman?

Henderson didn't lose to Ricardo Arona?

BJ Penn didn't beat Matt Hughers? Ricco didn't beat Randy Couture?

Sounds like another person grasping at straws to explain why despite proving it's worth time and again, BJJ really isn't as good as it seems. You want to know the biggest difference between karate and BJJ, karate never proved anything.

[pstevens]

BJJ cannot beat a world class wrestler? Hmmm, so then Nog didn't beat Dan Henderson? Or Mark Coleman?

Henderson didn't lose to Ricardo Arona?

BJ Penn didn't beat Matt Hughers? Ricco didn't beat Randy Couture?

Sounds like another person grasping at straws to explain why despite proving it's worth time and again, BJJ really isn't as good as it seems. You want to know the biggest difference between karate and BJJ, karate never proved anything.

Tyler,

I think the point most people are trying to make is that at the current level of MMA, it’s not really what you know, but who you are in terms of physical attributes and athletic ability. In other words, a world class wrestler would tie a BJJ blue belt in knots. I think the mistake people make is comparing MMA fighters with themselves. Most MMA fighters aren’t too concerned with style, rather they want to improve themselves to a level of efficiency. I think it wise to do the same.

I don’t doubt the effectiveness of BJJ, but in the real world things are quite different. True story: I got into a fight outside a bar about three years ago. Some jerk mistook me for someone else. The guy grabbed me from behind and pulled me to the ground. I had him in my half-guard then full guard, but couldn’t sweep or reverse him because the friction between the concrete and my shirt didn’t allow me to twist or turn. The guy was throwing wild punches and as I tried to control his head and arms, I got hit in the eye which obscured my vision. Luckily for me, someone pulled him off of me because I couldn't keep his head down.

BJJ worked because it kept the guy from seriously hurting me long enough for other people to save me. Had there been broken glass, which there always seems to be outside a bar, I would had been hurt badly. Since then, I’m not so naive and I’ve come to realize that certain BJJ techniques work on the mat, but not concrete, carpet or even grass.

[Creeper]

Sounds like another person grasping at straws to explain why despite proving it's worth time and again, BJJ really isn't as good as it seems. You want to know the biggest difference between karate and BJJ, karate never proved anything.

You're missing the point completely. I'm not suggesting wrestling is better than BJJ, or BJJ is better than wrestling. Just as you pointed at the number of BJJ guys that have beat wrestlers there have been just as many wrestlers who have beat BJJ fighters. Renzo has lost his last 5 out of 6 fights.

The more skilled grappler has the advantedge. It doesn't matter if it's BJJ, Wrestling, or Shootwrestling. An example would be the early UFC fights.

Royce Gracie - BJJ
Don Frye - Wreslting
Frank Shamrock - Shootwrestling

Like I said, the more skilled grappler has the edge. By today's standards of course one has to know when to punch and when to knee and elbow too. But the base is still focused on grappling, not just BJJ.

[TylerDurden]

Tyler,

I think the point most people are trying to make is that at the current level of MMA, it’s not really what you know, but who you are in terms of physical attributes and athletic ability. In other words, a world class wrestler would tie a BJJ blue belt in knots. I think the mistake people make is comparing MMA fighters with themselves. Most MMA fighters aren’t too concerned with style, rather they want to improve themselves to a level of efficiency. I think it wise to do the same.

I don’t doubt the effectiveness of BJJ, but in the real world things are quite different. True story: I got into a fight outside a bar about three years ago. Some jerk mistook me for someone else. The guy grabbed me from behind and pulled me to the ground. I had him in my half-guard then full guard, but couldn’t sweep or reverse him because the friction between the concrete and my shirt didn’t allow me to twist or turn. The guy was throwing wild punches and as I tried to control his head and arms, I got hit in the eye which obscured my vision. Luckily for me, someone pulled him off of me because I couldn't keep his head down.

BJJ worked because it kept the guy from seriously hurting me long enough for other people to save me. Had there been broken glass, which there always seems to be outside a bar, I would had been hurt badly. Since then, I’m not so naive and I’ve come to realize that certain BJJ techniques work on the mat, but not concrete, carpet or even grass.

It sounds to me more like you panicked than anything else. So you couldn't sweep him did you try to sit up? You could have easily avoided getting punched in the face if you had just extended your hips and pushed away. Unless he had the arms of a gorilla there is no way for him to reach your face. You should have just swept him from halfguard in the first place.

I am not saying BJJ is perfect, and anyone serious about MMA needs to crosstrain. I am just sick of people attacking it, when everytime a BJJ expert has taken on some karate master of kung fu expert the BJJ person seems to come out on top.

And stop with the, glass strewn ground thing. Would the ground have been any safer if you didn't know how to grapple? If anything your fight shows how important it is to know ground work. That excuse about landmines, broken bottles and nails is completely weak. I have lived in cities all my life and most of the pavement is not covered in shards of glass.

[Creeper]

I am not saying BJJ is perfect, and anyone serious about MMA needs to crosstrain. I am just sick of people attacking it, when everytime a BJJ expert has taken on some karate master of kung fu expert the BJJ person seems to come out on top.

I will buy that arguement. I am not attacking BJJ as I myself train BJJ. My point is that if go toe-to-toe with a Wrestler I know I will have a serious challenge as wreslting is also all about groundwork and submissions. Wrestlers will not make the amateur mistakes that stand up martial artists will. In BJJ you learn to either defeat people who do not know BJJ or how to counter other BJJ moves. What you will not learn is how to counter wrestling, therefore you must be more prepared.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Are we talking about professional fighters or normal guys that train bjj? there's a difference. for example, if you're talking about someone like renzo, you could say his takedowns and striking are somewhat lacking, from that last fight of his against that fat japanese guy who just stood there hugging renzo for the whole fight. renzo had no chance at getting him down and couldn't hurt him standing up. renzo did ultimately win an easy decision because the other guy was inactive, but what would he have done if the other guy was a good striker? leaving out the wrestling and striking though, renzo is world class as a grappler, look at his abu dhabi results.

those brazilian top team guys are a more sophisticated bunch than just bjj. nog, belfort, busta...all obviously amazing grapplers but i don't think anyone would want to get punched by one of them either. all of them have good takedowns and good takedown defense as well. they're pretty complete fighters even though they fight under the banner of bjj.

as far as being a normal guy who only trains for fun and self defense, bjj is a great art to learn. while the takedown training is not like wrestling training, an average blue belt could easily take down 99% of the guys on the street. and with all the conditioning involved in bjj you can hit harder than most guys and take body blows better as well. you're not invincible, but you're pretty well equipped. you end up pretty well equipped with bjj, judo, wrestling, muy thai, and boxing. because it's real training and you get to practice your techniques every time you train. obviously the more of these type of arts you train, the better overall fighter you'll be but who has time for that if you have work and family and other hobbies?
but i'm not sure a tkd or karate black belt even have an edge in standup against a judo black belt or bjj blue, there's too much stuff they're not trained for. they can fantasize about kicking you in the balls or elbowing you if you clinch, but they've never done it before. and they think they can sweep you if you're standing above them, but i wouldn't bet on it. and if you get their back and are looking for a rear naked, the elbow shot or heel stomp is not going to get them out of trouble.

[Creeper]

you end up pretty well equipped with bjj, judo, wrestling, muy thai, and boxing. because it's real training and you get to practice your techniques every time you train. obviously the more of these type of arts you train, the better overall fighter you'll be but who has time for that if you have work and family and other hobbies? but i'm not sure a tkd or karate black belt even have an edge in standup against a judo black belt or bjj blue, there's too much stuff they're not trained for.

The key to all the above mentioned 'effective' martial arts is sparring. Any one of those without full resistance sparring is useless and makes you no better than the next guy.

The obvious thing for a grappler is take the opponent down as quickly as possible because you know 99% of the time you'll have the advantage, regardless of their stand up skills. Early UFC fights proved time and time again that TKD and Kenpo Karate is useless on the ground let alone in standup. Many people forget that the famous Western Boxer K.O. Morris challeneged and successfully beat Japanese martial artists of many standup styles in the early 1920s. It wasn't until Okazaki stepped up in 1922 with his Judo skills and got Morris in a reverse armlock and broked his arm, thus regaining respect for martial arts. But as we all know, Judo is one of the only martial arts that's truly effective because of it's grappling.

[CKD]

This is a great argument. Mr Miyagi you said tickling Sak with his standup? Sakuraba changed stances with his kicks. You also talked about Goes being much larger than Sakuraba, Well Sakuraba was also a whole lot bigger than Royce, Ryan, Renzo and especially Royler. I have no clue why I just said that but anyways the weakness of wrestling is no submissions, encourages you to turn your back, victory is based around the pin, the guard is non-existint and the mount is barely there. Strength mad takedowns. The BTT is an interesting team because they seem to crosstrain less than other fighters and they incorperate lots of things from different martial arts into bjj. Sperry was able to get Igor down without getting his head knocked of so he obviously is doing something right One of the fighters I find interesting is Nick Diaz because he is a full time GJJ guy with no major crosstraining. I think you might have panicked when you got caught in half-guard and I agree that the Gracie worship is not a good thing, they are not the best in bjj anymore,definitely among the top but they drag attention away from the other great BJJ fighters. I just spewed out a bunch of random information there didn't I

[Creeper]

Strength mad takedowns.

Wreslting also provided the skills of avoiding takedowns, whether coming from BJJ fighters or other Wrestlers. That's why Renzo had such a hard time against Henderson.

[CKD]

Renzo never fought Coleman. That was Henderson. On an interesting side note, Rickson Gracie will be fighting again against Maeda, the creator of the Rings association. Well lets see Belfort, Sperry, Gurgel, and a the whole Gracie family say Rickson could whoop them. I think I got a give this one to the man with a record of 400W OL. Including schooling Takada, a fighter that beat Coleman and drew with Mirko Cro Cro Crop and fought against other big name fighters. But no one was able to just school him like Rickson did.

[JaredExtreme]

On an interesting side note, Rickson Gracie will be fighting again against Maeda, the creator of the Rings association.

[Mr. Miyagi]

If you believe that Takada really "beat" Coleman then boy, do I have a bridge to sell you!
Takada hasn't done anything in MMA, that win against Otsuka was a work too, I don't think he could even beat Otsuka in a real fight.

Fabio Gurgel has done amazing in the world of sport bjj. Really, one of the best competitors for that. I didn't see his fight that happened against Kerr, or the fight that didn't happen against Pat Smith, but I saw the Bohlander fight. He had the technique but I didn't like his strategy. He cut Bohlander with a punch standing up and didn't move in for the kill. At one point he took Bohlander down and spent so much time and energy passing the guard, getting side mount, then full mount, only to get rolled immedietely. He could have won that fight with the right approach, Bohlander was nothing special.

Sperry never said that Rickson was the best. Sperry and Belfort said that Liborio was the best grappler in the world. I'm not there watching the BTT training sessions but from watching Busta's takedowns, Nog's bobbing and weaving, and Belfort's fists those guys know how to do other things besides lie on the ground 'waiting for the opponent to make a mistake'. Rickson can still compete with lots of the better fighters out there, I'd actually call him an even money bet against Frank Shamrock or Sakuraba, which is probably why he won't fight them. But I'd be more worried for him against Silva and most of the top heavyweights. He would have easily subbed Yoshida though. I think PRIDE should do a old man's fight of Rickson against Ken Shamrock, that would be really popular and I think Rickson would win.
When Sakuraba was asked if Rickson really fights for honor, he said, "I think Rickson only fights for money." How much was he paid for that Funaki fight? Rickson has said before that he wouldn't fight for the UFC because the fee is too small compared to Japanese promos. Lot of fighters fled the UFC in the early days because of that. Mark Kerr almost got sued by the UFC for that.

Yes, Sperry did a fine job of getting Igor to the canvas without losing his head. Francisco Bueno and Enson Inoue on the other hand...especially Bueno, that was brutal. Saulo Ribeiro's debut and only MMA fight was really sad too, I had high hopes for him from watching him at AD, he got wrecked in a few seconds by Kondo.

I was mentioning Goes being bigger than Sak because I think the bigger man should be able to score a takedown and Goes lay on his butt for most of it. I guess I should have said that in the previous post. I didn't expect the lighter Gracies to be able to take down Sak. Sak was letting Renzo kick him, he certainly didn't leave himself open to being kicked by Silva, or Braga, or Mezger. Braga, always liked that guy, wish he'd come back to PRIDE.

[CKD]

Never seen Takadas fights so I would not know if they were worked. I just saw his fight with Rickson and he got schooled, Rickson toyed with him. Gurgel is great, he is just more of a sport guy. His fight with Kerr was amazing. Kerr said if Gurgel was a bit bigger he would have won. I do recall Sperry saying Rickson was one of the best, but that was an old interview so maybe he had a change in heart. Yes Bueno got his face beat in, but that is how BJJ evolves, by losses. Just like the BTT had to come up with more ways to deal with punches in the guard, they figured that out after several matches were bjj fighters just sat there eating fists with there opponent in their guard. I heard from Ricksons camp that he was considering fighting Sak if no other BJJ fighter could beat him and restore honor, Nog did that. Royler also is supposed to get a re-match because of the call on his fight. For Rickson to fight for honor you have to get him pretty pissed off. Last time a fighter did that he got beat really bad and then choked unconcious.

[JaredExtreme]

CKD I would still like to know when the Rickson/Maeda match is.