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Originally posted by pstevens
Have a nice day!
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You're right... I'm dumb... you're cool... I'm not!
Have a nice day! -
Man, p-stevens you say you're a blue belt in BJJ and have gone to great lengths to diss it, especially the founders and are making personal attacks to those who support it.
Why so angry
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Ok, Genki Sudo (non-BJJ 5'8" 148) beat Butterbean Esch (6' 350) in a Pride style NHB event. Butterbean has cleaned the clocks of many heavyweight heads in Toughman Championships, but he couldn't land on the faster Sudo who landed a few shots of his own. Once they went to the ground, Butterbean landed on top
but Sudo slipped down to his leg and Sub'd Bean with an ankle lock.
Pure BJJ isn't enough these days in MMA, because wrestlers and kickboxers have learned strategies against it. Now, BJJ has to re-adjust itself. Without some BJJ training, these guys would continue to lose...
Look at Severn vs. Gracie - Severn was a very well respected Collegiate wrestler and coach and had an 80lb weight advantage!
Smith vs. Gracie - Pat Smith has fought in K-1! He is definitely a superior athlete compared to Gracie.
Severn vs. Shamrock - 1st match Shamrock was the only UFC fighter to be able to last a few minutes with Gracie. 2nd match was a draw, while Shamrock landed some hard shots - the fight could have gone either way but was a draw.
I'm not into Gracie worship at all, but facts are facts.Comment
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Originally posted by Tom YumMan, p-stevens you say you're a blue belt in BJJ and have gone to great lengths to diss it, especially the founders and are making personal attacks to those who support it.
Why so angry ?
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Because he thought he knew a little something but he got beat down like a dog anyway. He needs to cast blame somewhere 'cause he can't very well admit that the problem is really that he couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag no matter what you teach him.Comment
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Congrats on your 1,000th post, ju xiansheng
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Originally posted by Tom YumCongrats on your 1,000th post, ju xiansheng
Xie Xie ni!Comment
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Paul is a hater pure and simple but i respect his opinion.
1.) bjj is only good for one on one
2.) bjj has defeated may other martial arts.
3) without bjj in a mma fight you can't win. that's a fact
4.) bjj is the base style. the foundation.
without bjj you really can't do sh.it but get tapped. period. if you are on the street you can resort to attacking the eyes, vital spots, the testicals. .... etc... it boils down to what works on the STREETS!
martial arts teaches you to fight so that you don't have to....
my opinion is that Paul is hater ...
who am i to judge!
Peace!
Crazy Joe
Streets, Jail, Clubs, Hang outs, Bars ......Comment
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I agree with most except without bjj in mma you can not win. Fedor has never done bjj but it seems he has no problem smashing Nog. No other Russian fighter does bjj in fact. BJJ is not the only good submssion art out there.Originally posted by crazyjoe380Comment
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finally, someone with the guts to say it. . . .Originally posted by CKDComment
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quote"2.) bjj has defeated may other martial arts.
3) without bjj in a mma fight you can't win. that's a fact
4.) bjj is the base style. the foundation."
Just wanted to add a few things. BJJ has defeated many arts but the first UFC's were kind of set up. For example Art Davie was going to get Alexander Kaerlein to represent wrestling. Rorion would have none of it and Karlein did not get into the show. Its pretty easy to see why he would not allow him. Karlein is a physical specimen, has incredible takedowns and there was no way Royce could take him down, Royce would probaly be slammed unconcious, Karlein was in Russia and had access to sambo schools that could teach him all about subs, NHB contests have gone on in Russia as long as they have gone in Brazil so he could find someone with experience in these competetions. So to represent wrestling they got Dan Severn and to represent sambo they had some guy that was only planning on doing one fight to see what it was like. BJJ is the base style for what? It does make a good base for mma but sambo, judo and koch also seem to make good foundations. For example Fedor, Sergei, that russia that deat Almeida, Zinoiev(dude who beat Sperry, Yoshida(although he is a bit low class), and some other Japanese judo guys have done well. Best BJJ guys are Sperry, Nog, Arona, Bustamante and a few others.Comment
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correction
So what is the TRUTH regarding BJJ again? I seem to have missed it. I see a lot of people interested in being right.
Continually using mma fights as examples of styles and strategies to strengthen or weaken an argument doesn't take anything away from all the people who arn't super athletes who want to simply train in a martial are that isn't based on forms, but offers them a way to expereince live resistant movement. As a "doorway" to alive training bjj offers an atmostphere where an individual can experience a fully resisting opponent. Where do they take it from there? It's up to the individual.
To isolate the current bjj community into a window of arrogant words bent on marketing minded historical claims is very narrow minded. Even if the history is debatable, or the foundations of bjj in America are with the Gracies... I don't see the gracies as dominating the bjj or mma community as whole, and who really cares who's on top? Do they have something to teach? Do you have something to learn?
There are many INDIVIDUALS who use bjj for what it is, a way to train grappling technique. There are also people who buy into advertised claims and puff their chests up and think they are invincible just like Helio in the gracie comic books, but then kimura broke his arm. But hey, i train judo too right?
My point is... gracie jiu jitsu is not the whole bjj community, just a small idealize part. MMA is something that happens on television and is sensationalized to extreme. it's fun to watch, but is ANYTHING BUT STYLIZED. Real athletes work hard, mma atheletes work hard at beating each other. Style? I remember seeing style in the first 3-4 UFC's... it's all cross training now. To argue about 'style' these days shows an inability to see the evolution of the martial art culture in the last 10 years.
I think the cool thing about bjj is that there are no forms, and it forces INDIVIDUALS to recognize the need to integrate decontextualized technique into usable dialog while sparring. Basically exactly what happened to all the people practicing the forms without sparring... they had to re-learn the sparring curve.
Individuals are are interested in learning self defense generally spar. If someone doesn't ever get punches thrown at them during sparring, how will they respond during a street fight? Panic is a negative anyway you look at it. Train like you want to fight. It's simple enough. To me it doesn't seem like anything that requires the amount of bickering you folks are doing. Just my honest opinion.
If you never have a friend drop bombs on you you wont know what to do when an enemy does. If someone simply wants to train in one range and dream they will live there in time of danger, they are gambling. It's risky in SD minded training to do that.
Dave
ps- humans are bigger then grappling which is bigger then bjj which is bigger then the gracies who are bigger then helio who is humanComment
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Some sense at last.Originally posted by jitzmandala
Amen
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glad i'm not humanps- humans are bigger then grappling which is bigger then bjj which is bigger then the gracies who are bigger then helio who is humanComment
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Umm...
If Wrestling, Sambo, And Any Other Martial Art Could Have Taken The Place Of Jiu Jitsu, Then Why Didn't It?
Fador Is One Exection...Comment
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Fusen Ryu
Although the Fusen Ryu is an interesting tangent to reinforce the Gracie families claims to have improved upon the judo system there are other ways to look at what state judo was in as it was being pioneered in countries outside of japan. Meada was not the only pioneer. I'm certain that each culture contains certain idealogical attributes in which martial culture can incubate and mature accross a spectrum of possible outcomes. The inception of judo is an example of this, just as the inception of schools of swordsmanship that emphasised subtler technique formed at the end of the feudal warring periods. (ref: mushashi: his life and writings)
For an interesting twist of perspective on the judo culture in the later 1800's look up the name "Higashi" for some information on a judo man who was familiar with the jiu jitsu backgrounds of judo and fought challenge matches in europe and america and was subsequenty banned from judo competition for fighting for money.
Why didn't sambo american wrestling and the like take the place of jiu jitsu? Simple; because jiu jitsu is older then it's american and russian counter parts. Also there were judo pioneers traveling to where there was no judo way back, which includes it's conception and incubation in brazil.
Here's some more info on some old judo and jiu jitsu pioneers to the "west"---
"Katasukma Higashi, another Japanese judo expert, taught in Britain , Germany , and other Europe countries. His biggest contribution to the development to judo in Europe was The Complete Kano’s Jiu Jitsu, which he published with Irving Hancock in 1905. A reprint edition, more than 60 years after the first publication, is still selling in many European countries.
Yukio Tani, a small jujutsuka from Japan , was the first to bring judo to Britain . Barton Wright, famous Britain sportsman, persuaded Tani to being teaching jujutsu. In 1904 he was fighting wrestlers for money, but failed to start a regular gym. Thought he was active until his death in 1950, other interests limited his participation.
Gunji Koizumi arrived in England in 1906. Koizumi became the father of British and also European judo. He stayed a year in England , visited the U.S. , but returned to London by 1910, and with Tani started to teach jujutsu. In 1918 Koizumi founded the Budokwal, the oldest judo dojo in Europe , still the center of British judo."
Also here is some interesting info I found on the 'changes to judo from it's original "form" hah. Funny how "sport" changes things.
Taken from:
1899 Banned Locks of fingers ,toes wrists and ankles
1916 Knee entanglements twisting knee locks and
body scissors banned
1925 Joint locks and attacks were limited to elbow
There is a lot of interesting info out there in history to reflect upon, sometimes it can offer valuable insite into a percieved "modern" cultural phenomenon.
The historical signifigance of Fusen Ryu as it is portrayed by Renzo in Mastering Jiu Jitsu .. to me... seems geared towards reinforcing the signifigance of evolving and challenging ANY system of movement by exploiting percieved blind spots. Thus judo had to change. And it did. Regardless of why, it did.
Modern mma fighting has done a very good thing for us... making us ALL aware of the importance in training in all ranges, even if we have our favorite place to play, we have to respect and understand the usefullness of all the ranges of combative contact. Although i believe mma is overly sensationalized, and is an 'olympics' of martial art, it offers us a closer view to scientifically understand combat outside of the bubble of "form" that locked so many peoples minds into the false security of the rehersed movement. You can't learn to play the drums waving your sticks in the air.
My 02c and Regards,
Dave in OregonComment
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You mean in mma? Well all fighters out of the former ussr do not do bjj. Many people out of Japan do judo for submissions and Dan Severn also does sambo for subs along with other american fighters. Many fighters do not use bjj for subs. There is more than one exceptionOriginally posted by crazyjoe380
Where did you get the idea that bjj was the base for mma? Jiu-jitsu has been replaced. Never really started as a base in my opinion. People start from different bases. I have a thread on the best grappling bases if you want to discuss that though. Like to hear your opinions. Even in the early style vs style days it had trouble. There are a lot of bjj practicioners in mma. Probaly because people in bjj have more links to mma people and many people start bjj with the interest of getting into mma. A few grappling arts like sambo and koch are just not wide spread enouph.
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