BJJ/Judo

[tekshow]

i guess that's why we'll do judo wakasashi drills and hip throws as entries often times in our vale tudo class and then go to the ground and follow up with some BJJ, Dumag, and Shooto.

[CKD]

Ya thats right. I think, not sure what you are talking about. what style do you practice?

[IPON]

Well Judo and BJJ matched up in Bushido #3 yesterday when I saw it. Did anyone else see it too?

Sincerly,
Andrew Velocci

I saw the match the Judoka won and almost had the choke at the bell. Very good match

[avelocci]

Did you see thye middle gracie match that fool got his ass handed to him. 6 seconds and it's over, never again will there be a Gracie as great as Royce. For shame.

Sincerly,
Andrew Velocci

[wardancer]

i missed it. BTW i already started taking BJJ and Muay Thai for my 3rd week...ok so what im basically asking is, if two different people were trained in BJJ and Judo for the same amount of time, lets say a year and got in a street fight. who would come out as the victor?

There is more factors to your equation:
style is not the only factor.
The individual's skills/training, the instructors teaching quality, the level of competition they have done etc...
When in come to it, well..a submission attempt are stopped when one figther raise to the ground in Judo rules. Such rules does not apply to BJJ. We keep fighting on.
For the extras stuff like glass on the concrete and kicking oppponents friends, I will leave that to Thai Bri to explain the IF THEORY from the best couch potates expert.....
Now really, MA styles are not like cars. You can't purchase a certain MA and you will do better than others because so self-claimed theory say-so.
I have seen Judo dude beat BJJ dude at their own game. Because they are bigger, trained harder and overall are better fighter: when it comes to the crunch if you do BJJ as half hearted and not training well, you will be a disgrace to your BJJ Team.
You most probalby will never make in the fighting Team.
Do not expect to reach to Blue Belt if you cannot submit your own blue belt BJJ training partners.

[pstevens]

I am confused by your point. If everyone has been mugged at some time, could not BJJ be used for defense? The first fights that Carlos and Helio held from my understanding were closer to street fight than combat sport. They fought on the street not rings initially. Thye testing for BJJ came from Maeda who taught the Gracies his version of Judo and JJ. I guess that take home message is that even if combat sport both BJJ and Judo have very useable techniques which can easily be applied to the street or SD.

just my $.02

IPON,

Do you honestly believe that Helio went around fighting people in the streets with a no loss record? I suppose every fight was one-on-one with enough time to test omo platas, Americanas, etc... If someone wants to beat you down in Brasil, they get their friends and whatever weapon they can get a hold of and beat you to a pulp. When I was in Brasil, the newspaper reported that some guys beat up an officer with bottles from the local pub.

The Gracie fights were challenge matches either outside or inside their gym. That's not the same as getting into a fight while walking around Brasil, or hanging at the local nightclub. If you're a trained Judoka and someone has no idea what you're capable of, then ofcourse the advantage is yours in a confined and controlled environment.

[jubaji]

IPON,

Do you honestly believe that Helio went around fighting people in the streets with a no loss record? I suppose every fight was one-on-one with enough time to test omo platas, Americanas, etc... If someone wants to beat you down in Brasil, they get their friends and whatever weapon they can get a hold of and beat you to a pulp.

Oh, so you were in Brazil when you got beat up! I see.

[IPON]

Do you honestly believe that Helio went around fighting people in the streets with a no loss record?

I never stated that he did. I am just stating that there were alot a fights in the street not ring and I am sure he had his share of spontaneous fights. You made a point about the number of mugging in Rio and my point is that sport or not the techniques have application, both Judo and BJJ

Actually the issue of not loss is interesting. When teh UFC started Rorion constantly staed "65 years undefeated" But we know that Helio was defeated by Kimura, so where dis the clock start since that fight happened mid 1950s I believe (30-40yrs max) curious if anyone has an answer

[Mr. Miyagi]

To be effective with judo you have to be pretty advanced. Most people would not be able to throw another martial artist that knew they were trying to get that throw if they'd only been doing judo for a year. A year of bjj and you're starting to push the blue belt level, you've learned a lot. The judo basics are much more difficult to execute in reality, they're only very effective if you're an advanced player. Also, judo guys don't spend as much time sparring in the early levels as bjj guys do. Bjj students spar as much as anyone else since the day the appear in class as white belt. Judo guys spend lots of time practicing on a cooperating partner and trying to learn the Japanese name to every single technique.

In bjj you learn a lot of judo and in judo you learn a lot of bjj. But you don't learn lower body subs in judo. And you don't become that great at takedowns and throws in bjj, compared to a wrestler or judo black belt.

I trained with a judo black belt who was taking bjj. We were both white belts at the time and he had a huge advantage over me when we started on the feet and a smaller advantage on the ground. But he never managed to really throw me, he got me down by tripping me or some other takedown but never anything like those picturesque judo throws you see of an upside down victim, legs in the air, about the land on their back. Maybe he didn't want to hurt me, who knows? He couldn't take down guys who had wrestled in college.

A guy like Yoshida is an exception. He's not like most judo black belts, but then again I guess most judo black belts don't have a gold medal either. Most judo black belts can be tapped out by you average bjj blue belt.

In that book the Gracie Way I think it mentions Helio's other matches. Many of them ended in draws, sometime with Helio getting the worst of it and sometimes Helio dishing out the beating. Besides Kimura, he also lost to Waldemar Santana, a loss that Carlson avenged. For all the Gracies have done to paint this picture of a weak sickly young Helio, he doesn't look at all weak or sickly in those pictures. In fact, he looks pretty tough and lean, with wiry strength. Maybe the prepubescent Helio was a weak, sickly guy, before he started training.
I also don't understand what exactly Helio refined in the art. The sweeps, subs, and so on are the same as those in Sambo, which also came out of judo and jujutsu. I suppose you could say that Carlos and Helio and their descendents evolved with the art, but it has continued to evolve since then, particularly in the past ten years.

[IPON]

Also, judo guys don't spend as much time sparring in the early levels as bjj guys do. Bjj students spar as much as anyone else since the day the appear in class as white belt. Judo guys spend lots of time practicing on a cooperating partner and trying to learn the Japanese name to every single technique.

Well that's not completely correct I did start randori my first day of judo standing and newaza. But I do agree with your point.

Oh, I don't think ppl just stand around learning he japanese name for the art, but it is a japanese art should we not learn the name in japanese?

I also don't understand what exactly Helio refined in the art. The sweeps, subs, and so on are the same as those in Sambo, which also came out of judo and jujutsu. I suppose you could say that Carlos and Helio and their descendents evolved with the art, but it has continued to evolve since then, particularly in the past ten years.

I agree, not taking anything away from the Gracies, but I do not see BJJ as a Gracie creation. There maybe some principles but the techniques were already part of the Jujitsu and Judo Maeda taught the Gracies. So when ppl say BJJ is nothing like JJJ it is actually a false statement. BJJ is simply the modern version of a ryu of JJJ, which is not practice anymore. And except for some scattered Kosen Judo schools, if not for the Gracies this style of fighting would be lost.

[wardancer]

To be effective with judo you have to be pretty advanced. Most people would not be able to throw another martial artist that knew they were trying to get that throw if they'd only been doing judo for a year. A year of bjj and you're starting to push the blue belt level, you've learned a lot. The judo basics are much more difficult to execute in reality, they're only very effective if you're an advanced player. Also, judo guys don't spend as much time sparring in the early levels as bjj guys do. Bjj students spar as much as anyone else since the day the appear in class as white belt. Judo guys spend lots of time practicing on a cooperating partner and trying to learn the Japanese name to every single technique.

Hi Mr. Miyagi, i have to disagree.
Judo can be effective from day one as much as BJJ. OK I learned 'Amassa Pao' Thrusting choke (no I did not have to learn the portuguese name) as my first lesson and pratice on a guy until he tapped each time. I love such training (straight to the point: submition fighting). I had to wait 5 lessons before rolling 'sparring'. Some Judo Clubs might be more 'conservative' (like learn how to fall drills for a few months) but I doubt so.
Judo basics are easy and they get to do their randori may be less as I do. Our rolling time is usually 30 minutes per classe.
You might hate me for saying that but I did see Judokas beat BJJ fighters in BJJ open tournament (fair and square). OK, you might say the question was about a street fight.
ONE YEAR IN BJJ AND YOU ARE PUSHING TO BLUE BELT LEVEL??? Not in my club, unless you can beat the blue belts but in one year? That part I did not understand.
Unless you are saying that the amount of techniques a white belt knows after one year of training is similar to the amount of techniques that a blue belt knows. The Blue belt guy just does them better.
Then I have to explain that in my BJJ club, after white belt you get to blue belt unlike most Judo style that has yellow/orange/green belt, the BJJ white belt has '1/2/3/4 tips'.
In my club, the techniques taught by the instructor are the same for white belt and colored belt, and we get to roll with everybody.



Cheers,

[pstevens]

Ipon,

In the "Gracie Way," it states that the Gracies were issuing challenge matches to refine their art... Whether they actually engaged in street brawls is trivial... I'm sure if they did, there would be instances where they were outnumbered or at least stabbed – people simply don't engage in a grappling contest in the streets.

I hate to say it, but I agree with Wardancer... Mr. Miyagi, a black belt Judoka that can't throw you?... Now, that's hard to believe... There are plenty of resisting opponents during tournaments that get thrown, and these guys are also judoka... I've never seen a black belt judoka who was unable to throw someone, unless that someone was simply sitting down.

There's a story on Michael Jen's website about his judo experience.... Check it out, I don't remember the link, but even after being a black belt BJJ, he was thrown pretty easily... He states something like, "if they want to throw you, they can do it at will...."

[CKD]

A bjj player will no more judo tech than the judo nows bjj technique. I do not agree that BJJ is like Japanese Jiu-jitsu. They are two different animals. Helio took out things such as fancy standing wristlocks, added leg locks, made more use of the spider guard, modified move slightly to make them easier to peform and Renzo refined the arm-inside gulliotine to make it work, Rolls developed new open guard techniques, Royce found a good way too make the stomping front kick a tool to close the distance(might have been another family member), Helio also made much more use of the guard.

[IPON]

I do not agree that BJJ is like Japanese Jiu-jitsu.

I think you are missing my point. I am not saying BJJ is JJJ, I am saying it is simply another Ryu. Fusen Ryu looked far dirfferent than other Ryu of JJJ. In fact I have always consiered it to be more Brasilian Judo the BJJ. But it seems that far too much credit is given to Gracies when referring to thier version of JJ. I give them credit for refining aspects of JJ and maintaining the legacy, but ppl seems to think of this great creation made by the Gracies which was not true. The training (randori) was part of Judo, Leg locks were part of judo then removed. When Carlos Gracie and family were taught judo, leg locks were still being used in Judo in the early 1900's. These leg locks of course come from Fusen Ryu Jujutsu. Helio took out all of these "fancy moves" or did Jigoro Kano.....hmmm...... that sounds exactly like Kano's statement and since it was Kano's best student (Maeda) that trained the Gracies who came first the chicken or the egg? I know many BJJers (and far more non-BJJers) who think the Gracies created the guard which is ridiculus. You are completely correct they simply made more use of it (the guard position) just as they utilize leg lock more than in most Judo and some JJJ.

The challege matches again I see that being copied from Maeda. I don't mean that copying is bad, actually is natural and shows that the Gracies have heart. I am merely stating that the genesis of the challege matches had more to do with what Maeda was doing and the Gracies having the heart to keep teh tradition alive, but it was not a concept they created.

This not Gracie bashing BTW I don't have time for that, I am just being fair as I see it. What I see as BJJ is a style of JJJ that would have been lost for all time if Maeda never came to Brasil. But the status of BJJ today (positively speaking ) is 100% by virtue of Helio (specifically) and the Gracie clan (in general). Meada met and taught other Brasilians his style. However, if the Gracies had not stayed with the JJ, at best we would not have infusion of BJJ as we know it and probably it would have simply faded into obscurity.


Regarding the issue of tecnhiques, I think I am 50/50 agree/disagree. I learned alot of standing and grappling from Judo but the number of throws available to a judokda is not available to BJJ just as the amount of newaza is not available to a judoka. It is not right or wrong I wish people would get away from that. BJJ doesn't focus on throws becuase it's not point effect in a sport match correct? Well, Judoka focus less on grappling for the same reason thier sport. The techniques are there,but that does not mean they are not practiced heavily. But generally speaking it is not on the leve of BJJ I would not expect it to be nor would I expect BJJ to be at the level of a Judoka in terms of throws. There are 2 different philosophies for these arts and ppl can debate forever but the simple truth is ...there is no wrong or right.

Check this link http://members.lycos.co.uk/fight/judo/judovsbjj.html
unfortunately, I do consider some of it BJJ bashing but I do think there are some good points

My $.04 (damn I talk alot huh )

[Uncle Corny]

The answer, in my opinion, is neither. they're both cute and fun on a mat. in a real life, kill or be killed, combat situation, they're both useless.