Comments regarding arguments against BJJ

[Tant01]

Are you sure about that? No, no it's not. Not even close!

The modern focus of Olympic Judo is a far cry from the Kanoan judo of old. Recall the American occupation of Japan after WW2? All the "combative" techniques were removed from what was left of it at that time. BJJ is Kosen Judo, not "jiu-jitsu". History is what it is despite some peoples efforts to obscure or conceal it.

[Tant01]

To say BJJ is just Judo without the throws is ignorant at best.


Tant01, the person you quoted, Mark Tripp, is not an authority on BJJ, so his beliefs aren't the word of God. If you think he is correct, then you might also be surprised to know that he has also said that there are NO traditional styles of Ju-jitsu left and they were all eventually brought under the Judo umbrella.

Mark Tripp is an authority on Kodokan Judo. And he's right about Ju-Jitsu. There are elements of tradiditional Budo Ryu Ju-Jitsu in many modern styles. Tanto-jitsu comes to mind... But it's probably not as good as Kali or Karate or Judo...

Kastriot “George” Mehdi, who received his 8 dan kodokan rating in 1979 was also a student of Carlos and Helio Gracie back when (circa 1950). He also thinks the BJJ is just Judo without the throws....But he has "limited" experience with BJJ too.

[Jeremy Lobdell]

recall?

[QUOTE=Tant01]The modern focus of Olympic Judo is a far cry from the Kanoan judo of old. Recall the American occupation of Japan after WW2? [QUOTE]


You are absolutely right. I don't recall ( remember) anything about the American occupation of Japan after WW2 and you would have to be in your twilight years, you won't have anything to recall either unless you have a time machine. If you do, let me know. I'd love to go back with you, so I would have something to recall as well.
Mahalo, Jeremy

[Tant01]

[QUOTE=Jeremy Lobdell][QUOTE=Tant01]The modern focus of Olympic Judo is a far cry from the Kanoan judo of old. Recall the American occupation of Japan after WW2?

You are absolutely right. I don't recall ( remember) anything about the American occupation of Japan after WW2 and you would have to be in your twilight years, you won't have anything to recall either unless you have a time machine. If you do, let me know. I'd love to go back with you, so I would have something to recall as well.
Mahalo, Jeremy

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something".

Plato

[Jeremy Lobdell]

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something".

Plato

How far can that time machine go back to recall that?

[Tom Yum]

Time Machine???

Hey Tant, if you get into that time machine can you hook me up with the following:

- Ancient brew from the Romans
- An authentic disco ball
- A youthfull Kirstie Alley

thanks

[Tant01]

You need that thing that can take you WAAAY back , I think it's called a "wayback" machine... Perhaps Mr. Peabody can hook you up?

Here's a slightly different old writ. (than my signature quote) Circa 1500? It's long and translated from OE but interesting. Or, not...

*Therefore it behooves us not upon every abuse offered whereby our blood shall be inflamed, or our choler kindled, presently with the sword or with the stab, or by force of arms to seek revenge, which is the proper nature of wild beasts in their rage so to do , being void of the use of reason, which thing should not be in men of discretion so much to degenerate, but he that will not endure an injury, but will seek revenge, then he ought to do it by civil order and proof, by good and wholesome laws, which are ordained for such causes, which is a thing far more fit and requisite in a place of so civil a government as we live in, then is the other, and who so follow these my admonitions shall be accounted as valiant a man as he that fights and far wiser. For I see no reason why a man should adventure his life and estate upon every trifle, but should rather put up (with the) divers abuses offered unto him, because it is agreeable to the laws of God and our country.

...Therefore fly (away) all rashness, pride and doing of injury all foul faults and errors herein, presume not upon this, and thereby to think it lawful to offer injury to any, think not yourself invincible, but consider that often a very wretch has killed a tall man, but he that has humanity, the more skillful he is in this noble science, the more humble, modest and virtuous he should show himself both in speech and action, no liar, no vaunter, nor quarreller, for these are the causes of wounds, dishonor and death.

George Syluer (Silver)

*George Silver's Paradoxes of Defense was published in 1599, the Brief Instructions, which is the book which actually explains how to use various weapons... was apparently not published until...1898 by Captain Cyril G. R. Matthey. The manuscript was not dated, but it mentions Saviolo's book, which was published in 1595.


This pertains to arguements against something, HOW? LOL

[Tant01]

Here's a quote by Relson Gracie after an informal karambit demonstration a few months ago in Az.

"If you have a knife or gun, Jiu-Jitsu not work"


Via. Stephen Grosch OSG (Operational Services Group)

[Tom Yum]

I still want to borrow your time machine !!!

[Tom Yum]

"If you have a knife or gun, Jiu-Jitsu not work"

This isn't a new discovery though. Use that time machine.

I thought the conversation was about jujitsu
As an empty handed method of self-defense, it works out pretty well.

If we're going to up the ante on weapons, lets get goofy...

Ju-jitsu vs. 800lb brown bear - obviously the brown bear.

Ju-jitsu vs. Army's Tank....

Ju-jitsu vs. Stealth bomber....

Ju-jitsu vs. Solar supernova....

[JohnnyS]

George Medhi hates BJJ, so he's obviously not going to say anything nice about it. As I said, BJJ has evolved on its own and through contacts with wrestling and sambo.

If BJJ was just Judo, then how do you account for it not having the triangle choke until the 1970's?

This sort of argument really annoys me, because it's essentially Judoka saying "Yeah, we've got all that stuff and more". If that was the case, it goes against what people like the Camarillo brothers say.

[Tant01]

If BJJ was just Judo, then how do you account for it not having the triangle choke until the 1970's?

What? BJJ didn't get the Sankaku jime untill the 1970's. That can't be right. I have an old Judo pic with a very similar technique from 1906. Traingle choke with the legs around his neck and arm, right? ashi-gatame jime? Old school for sure.

[EmptyneSs]

yeah judo has had the triangle choke forever, its an old ass technique.. however i think it was made illegal in competition for a while. im not sure but i heard they have reinstated it or are going to.

[JohnnyS]

I was surprised too when I found out. I read somewhere that Jacare (the older one who was Rolls student), said that a guy saw the triangle in a Judo book and started getting people with it in class in the 1970's, and tapped Rolls with it. Then everyone started learning it and started changing their guard passes to deal with it.

So it seems that while BJJ did come from Judo, there was a long period where it developed on its own, then added things in such as the triangle. Rolls apparently introduced the sitting guard and a lot of wrestling takedowns. Since BJJ's introduction to the U.S and exposure to Sambo and wrestling, leglocks and more wrestling controls and takedowns have been added. Thus, BJJ is NOT just Judo with less throws. It's now a different art, with the same origins.

[EmptyneSs]

I was surprised too when I found out. I read somewhere that Jacare (the older one who was Rolls student), said that a guy saw the triangle in a Judo book and started getting people with it in class in the 1970's, and tapped Rolls with it. Then everyone started learning it and started changing their guard passes to deal with it.

So it seems that while BJJ did come from Judo, there was a long period where it developed on its own, then added things in such as the triangle. Rolls apparently introduced the sitting guard and a lot of wrestling takedowns. Since BJJ's introduction to the U.S and exposure to Sambo and wrestling, leglocks and more wrestling controls and takedowns have been added. Thus, BJJ is NOT just Judo with less throws. It's now a different art, with the same origins.

bjj has evolved for sure, most arts do, but to be honest, i think kosen judo has just about everything that bjj does for the most part, including the guard and all its different positions and uses and whatnot.