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Hey EmptyneSs
About Kosen Judo
Is it available widely in places outside of Japan and do they train only with the Gi?
About Kosen Judo
Is it available widely in places outside of Japan and do they train only with the Gi?
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Emptyness,
It's easy to say that something may have all the same techniques, but it doesn't mean they train them the same way or are as effective. For example, Yuki Nakai was a black belt in Kosen Judo but was no where near black belt level in BJJ. He now has a black belt in BJJ and teaches it. Why would he bother getting his black belt in BJJ and teaching BJJ if the arts were exactly the same?Comment
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Actually I believe that is a rumor. He practiced judo in high school and also did sambo before moving to bjj.Originally posted by JohnnySComment
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Wow, you BJJ guys sure are territorial. . . .Comment
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sorry, i dont know about kosen judos availability or if they train gi-less.Originally posted by RonsonComment
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medic06,
It's annoying when Judo people claim that BJJ is just Judo without the throws. It's as if they want to ride on the coat-tails of BJJ's success, and claim that "anything they can do, we can do better (with throws!)".
Let me give an analogy. TKD came from Shotokan karate. Both arts contain punches, kicks, blocks, some of the same katas etc. But there's no way you'd call them the same art anymore. It's the same thing with Judo and BJJ.Comment
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Well, they do have alot of techniques in common. I can see your point though.Comment
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It's a different game, (RULES) but it's all Judo to me.Originally posted by JohnnyS
The Gracies are machines on the mat to be sure. It would be interesting to see what they would have done with some yawara techniques.
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Originally posted by JohnnyS
"ignorant at best" right? Those judo people...
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See my analogy regarding TKd and Shotokan. The same techniques, but with a different philosophy and training methodology equals different arts.
Why not just say it's all ju-jitsu, and that Judo is just ju-jitsu with the dangerous techniques removed? Or why not accept that Judo has evolved past it's JJ origins into its own art and sport? Same deal with BJJ.Comment
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Jonnys>>Why not just say it's all ju-jitsu, and that Judo is just ju-jitsu with the dangerous techniques removed?
Right, nothing dangerous about limb destructions and choking. Throws aren't dangerous...Comment
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theres some info on kosen judo. if u type in kosen judo in google u will find more info on kosen judo and u will see that pretty much everything from bjj was from kosen judo.Comment
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Originally posted by JohnnyS
I don't think anyone should try to dismiss BJJ or start the "judo better than BJJ" as that is simply silly. However, I would agree that the history has nothing to do with today's BJJ practioners in their day to day practice. There is a part that they should be aware regarding the history of their style. It is very clear there is very little if anything that the Gracies actually created regarding technique. For example is it fair or accurate to say that Helio created the concept of Vale Tudo when this concept was bought to Carlos by one of Kano's students and being practiced in 20years prior. Is it fair or accurate to state that the Gracies developed the Guard when this has been used in Judo prior (though yes more utilized in today’s BJJ). And can you call it Jiujutsu when in fact the style has nothing to do with Jujutsu. Kano did make a clear distinction between Ju-jutsu and Ju-do which is the reason Kano changed the name. Who removed all the "dangerous techniques" that that enables one full resisting practice (randori) hardly a concept from the Gracies. So the style if anything is Brasilian Judo as that was what was taught to the Gracies.
Regarding the analogy I think it is too simplistic. TKD stylists don't act as though they created all the techniques or methods of training, so in truth it is not the same. Simplistically put (becuase that is the extent of what I know) Sambo is a combination of Russian wrestling and Judo. Mitsuo Maeda taught the Gracies their "juijuitsu" and he addiing some of his tyechniques I am sure from his NHB fights. But to my knowlege Carlos and Helio never studied Sambo nor wrestling. So if this is what you are studying or what is being taught by some instructors then by your analogy it is not really BJJ at all
Now, at some point I do plan to study BJJ as it will definitely be a nice addition for me as a grappler. But I do think it is interesting that people have very short memories when it comes to that Gracies and why their is so many negative feelings. In the early UFC Riorion basically stated that all MA styles were garbage except BJJ. Not only were they extremely arrogant but to be honest there were/are alot of lies and half truths (I am still trying to understand how the Gracies were undefeated for 65 years). This is the part the student s are not understanding. So when one explains the contribution of BJJ (which is major) and states the Gracies did this and a judoka may respond and state that "sorry to burst your bubble but that is a judo technique not BJJ" Similar to Bruce Lee's supposed 1 inch punch. I cannot tell you how many JKD people I explain that the punch is a Wing Chun Punch (which has a 1 inch and 3 inch punch). And no offense but BJJ stylists are almost becoming as cult like as JKD stylists.
So the point is to be clear and truthful, on both sides, not disrespectful. Take from this what you will.Comment
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Ipon,
I've got a few points I'd like to make:
1) I don't think you'd get anyone seriously saying that the Brazilians invented the guard. Luke Beston (a friend of mine) used to say it on forums, but he just liked to watch how upset people would get when he would say silly things like that.
2) At the time the Gracies were taught by Maeda, the terms Judo and ju-jitsu were inter-changeable so the Gracies using the name "jiu-jitsu" is not incorrect at all. BJJ is sufficiently different from Judo in Brazil that there is no good reason for the Gracies to call their art "Gracie Judo". Especially since the Brazilian Judo players don't want to be associated with the "jiu-jitsu" guys.
3) BJJ is not like other arts that don't deviate from what the "grandmaster" did. BJJ uses what works. When Renzo was defeated by Sakuraba with the kimura from the back, I was told by guys who were training in Brazil that BJJ guys were working on that technique the very next day.
Rolls Gracie studied Sambo, as well as wrestling and had a major influence on BJJ. When people like the Machado brothers came to the U.S. they also studied wrestling and learnt Sambo leglocks and this also had a big influence on BJJ. When I first started training BJJ in 1991, leglocks were considered a cheap submission, whereas now everyone from Royce, Royler, Ryron and Rener Gracie has used them in MMA, submission wrestling and BJJ tournaments, including Comprido using a toe-hold to defeat Roleta in 1999.
4) Rorian never stated that all other arts were garbage. In the Gracie-in-action videos he stated that if people wanted to be complete fighters they should learn Gracie Jiu-jitsu. He never said "quit what you're doing -it's garbage". If the Gracies had come to America and said "Yeah, you guys are great, but our art is good too", no-one would have paid attention to them. By Rorian doing what he did, he's had a profound impact on martial arts all around the world, and caused a major evolution of martial arts with MMA schools popping up all over the world now. He couldn't have done that without the challenge matches and the tough-talking. I'm not a Gracie apologist, I don't like the way they act sometimes, but that doesn't mean I can't seperate that from what they have given to the world.
5) In the Judo schools I have trained in, while they may teach armlocks, the guard, chokes etc, the entire philosophy and training is different from BJJ schools. They teach the techniques a different way, they teach the transitions a different way. They have different rules in their competitions and thus a different focus when on the ground, hence they are different arts. You are NOT going to learn exactly the same things in a Judo school as you will in a BJJ school because of the different focus for each art.Comment
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3) BJJ is not like other arts...When Renzo was defeated by Sakuraba with the kimura....
Ude garami? http://www.judoinfo.com/quiz0297_2.htm After Helio named it "Kimura" it's Jiu-Jitsu?
I like BJJ but i hate Judo.... LOL It's all the same game to me.Comment
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