Anyone get the feeling that you are the "odd man out" with traditional styles?

[Twisted up]

Traditional Stylists

I have to agree 100 percent!!! I experience this almost daily because I train in a friends school which is mostly traditional "Isshin-ryu" karate stylists.

IMO, karate guys seem to be the ABSOLUTE WORST about this. They ALWAYS talk shit about jiu-jitsu and the fact the NHB is a "sport". They always say, "I just won't let the fight GET to the ground!"

They downplay the effectiveness of jiu-jitsu (and grappling in general), but it doesn't really stop there. It infuses their whole approach to training--they never really (mostly) train FULL CONTACT. They say that the techniques are "too deadly" to train hard and that "There would be broken bones and eye balls lying around if they were to (train full contact)".

These are actual quotes that I've heard. You're certainly not paranoid in the LEAST!

When my partners and I are in there training, I feel like I'm being laughed at almost. It doesn't bother me that much because I realize the truth about things.

You simply cannot convince everyone. There are those among us who are "Indoctrinated" and won't budge in their thinking. What can you do?!

I just continue on and say, "it may not seem that effective, but I enjoy it as a 'SPORT'".


John

[Edited by Twisted up on 12-28-2000 at 06:51 PM]

[Angel_of_Pain]

I am doing grappling and in kickboxing but a friend of mine is doing karate and told me to go train whit I'm one day cause he wanted to know more about grappling, so we whent to the dojo he train and we started to train, I showed I'm a couple of technic after a couple of minute a guy was laughing and he was sure nobody could throw him down or make I'm tap. So I asked the guy if he wanted to try a little karate vs. grappling bout he accept my challeng it lasted 30 second max i shooted at is legs he fall down I choke him whit is cheap kimono that was destroyed during the fight and the tough guy tapped out. I'm not saying that grappling is better then karate, cause karate is a great faimily m.a. but theres some people who think that stand up is the key and need to get choked to get the point of not pissing off a grappler.

[YeLLa-TiGeR]

My gym is pretty humble. Seeing that our self defence instructor is a judoka and JJ'ist. We know the real difference between a real fight and an olympic match. Nevertheless we have some people that are just plain brawlers in the bars and at school. We just to also have a guy who trained with one of Rickson's purple belts for awhile. But those were the good ol days and now it just sucks ass. People in my gyn acknowledge that they would be lost on the ground and would be taken down easily but the thing is they DONT CARE. They train for sport and international competition not self defence. Everytime I hear some ass talk about about TKD being teh best I laugh because obviously that guy is a color belt. Any good black belt that only concentrates on Olympic TKD and is good knows that their stuff is not the same as a street brawl. Make no mistake, most of them will step up and wont do anything too stupid like do a jump spin hook kick.

I feel really left out when you guys talk about BJJ though. haha oh well, whenever I tell other MA'st that I am joining up with NHB and MMA soon, they just shake their head and say "damn, your nose is going to be flat as a pancake then they are done with you!"

[dan downard]

Actually I have been asked not to use t.k.d. kicks in class.The other guys can't get close to me.And they dont like those wrist locks I use to take them to the ground either.Pisses off the instructor to see you submit guys with wrist locks in two seconds into a fight.The self defence I was taught turned a lapel grab into a wrist lock.Now BJJ guys go for a collar and I immediatly wrist lock.From bottom or top.I have been accused of using cheap moves.I dont think there is any such thing.

[Ryu (non-working password]

Edro,
Challenge matches are fun if they don't get out of hand. I will be bringing over a Chinese kung fu artist over the next few weeks to do some sparring and groundwork. I don't think he knows much on the ground at all.
Wushu? Has your friend heard of a martial art called Vovinam? Actual Vietnamese art, but is mostly just standup I think.

Twisted up, as always very good post.

YeLLa,
you shouldn't feel left out when we talk about BJJ. You're pretty damn knowledable about it. Only the Brazilian members of the forum know all the technical terms anyway LOL. Hell, I suck at tournament BJJ. They'd eat me alive.
I'd much more prefer to stick with side control, pound, mount, pound, and a few good armlocks and chokes.

[Martial Artist]

I think that the % of people feel threatend by things that they dont know about.I think that this also holds true in martial arts.

[gungfuhero]

Dan Downward,

I cross train in tkd too. What have you found in it to work well in mma? I like your idea about the wrist locks. Once a 215 pounder took my back and out of desperation I put a cheap but rather effective wrist flexor on him and won.

The next time a "karate" guy boasts about his deadly techniques, ask him how he ever hopes to attack an eyeball (or any other target requiring a high level of precision) on a moving targe if he has never connected a jab to somebodies face. That takes some serious flight time and an eyeball is a lot smaller and harder to hit. Ask him how many weight lifter have won a gold medal by practicing clean and jerks sans weights and bars (power lifting kata?).

[Edited by gungfuhero on 12-29-2000 at 10:58 AM]

[dan downard]

The sliding foot work of TKD is unfamiliar to most as are the differant directions and positions you can kick from.I really like the way you step back and load a kick .From the other guys view it looks like you are backing off.Great setup for someone trying to shoot.You are low ,ready to punch or kick and still able to sprawl if you have to.Their wrist locks and wrist throws are more than likely from judo.

[Bad Karma]

I'm somewhat of a traditionalist karateka, amongst other things, and something to note...the more I train in Judo and Ju Jitsu; the more I learn Karate. Sounds strange, but it's true.

If you come across a group or individual who make silly claims about never being taken down or whatever - just let them live their fantasy lie...er...life. You should never argue with idiots because they'll just drag you down to their level and beat you up with experience. It doesn't take any special training for someone to bum rush you and take you down. Like my Momma always used to say, "effective is as effective does."

Having said all this, I think too many people are getting wrapped up in grappling and confusing it with ground fighting. They are not two of the same. If you only train BJJ, then do yourself a favor and train in a complimentary traditional martial art or something like JKD. You'll be surprised of the benefits. Likewise, in the reverse, I've gained A LOT of insight to technique applications and relationships. I enjoy using my brain (visualization) while training kata. I'm free to explore without the distraction of another person.

Kata, keeping this short, is nothing but empty movements that teach you nothing more than basic skills like balance, co-ordination, etc. It's when you bring the individual techniques learned "into" the kata...now the movements have meaning which in turn provide you a specific focus and the independent training begins. Awareness allows recognition allows association. Bruce Lee and his famous quote about a punch being just a punch...blah-blah...becoming more than just a punch...blah-blah...now a punch is just a punch kinda thing. You start out with only a single defined movement, you discover that movement has multiple definitions, and you end up with a single multi-purpose movement. Make sense?

Ryu, you were on the wrong forum to begin with - LOL!

Peace

[YeLLa-TiGeR]

Hey Dan, with the sliding foot work though, I find myself really open for a nice thai kick to the leg. Dont u find that too? Not to mention my head it sticking out there too.....

[Playa]

Originally posted by dan downard
Actually I have been asked not to use t.k.d. kicks in class.The other guys can't get close to me.And they dont like those wrist locks I use to take them to the ground either.Pisses off the instructor to see you submit guys with wrist locks in two seconds into a fight.The self defence I was taught turned a lapel grab into a wrist lock.Now BJJ guys go for a collar and I immediatly wrist lock.From bottom or top.I have been accused of using cheap moves.I dont think there is any such thing.

Bullsh!t alert!!!

[gungfuhero]

When you say sliding foot work, do you mean bringing the rear leg up as you chamber the lead?

[YeLLa-TiGeR]

Yes and you can do this while sliding off to a 45 degree angle and also sliding back while leaning to avoid a high kick.

[Survivor]

I'm *definitely* in the self-alienation camp.

Here in Munich, the traditional asian arts are in, and MMA is practically unheard of. In an attempt to cobble together the best training conditions, I'm going to two judo schools and a KB/MT school. My judo and my striking are coming along, but using them at the same time is not possible, so the whole blend basically only gets practiced mentally. When sparring in both styles I have a weird style that doesn't lend itself to the pure sport being practiced but which hopefully leaves me with less bad sport-influenced habits that could get me hurt on the street. The students think some of the things I do are weird, but I stay in control, don't break the rules, and don't hurt anybody so they still all happily spar with me.

I try to recruit crosstraining partners at both types of schools, but get met with very cool responses by both the students and instructors in both camps.

Blinders galore.

[gungfuhero]

Thanks for the clarification yella. Our tkd terminology varies from the main stream I suppose (mostly fma terms: female or male triangle).