Sweep, the Borg would win against the X-men because the Borg number in the billions and can destroy planets. resistance is futile.
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I have a question for all you 'grapplers' out there?
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I think Coleman would safely take down Tyson/Evander 90 or 95 times out of 100 as long as Coleman wasn't winded. That's what wrestlers do, and Coleman is a world-class wrestler. I know 'cause Blatnick told me so.
When Coleman has lost it's been because he's too gassed to take his opponent down, and his opponent then gets good punches or kicks in. This is definitely true of his fights with Maurice and Pete, and I think (but can't remember) it's true of his third UFC loss (Rizzo?).
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Colonie Crusher:
In response to your original post...Lets take Roy Jones, simply because he is closer to my weight than Tyson. Of course I think RJ has MUCH faster hands than Tyson too, so this provides a worse problem.
I think I can take Roy Jones to the ground. I will definitely get hit. I know this going into it. My only opportunity is to take a glancing blow and follow through with a hard takedown. Hopefully, I will get a takedown that may even knock his wind out. But the guy is a professional fighter so not likely.
Once I am on the ground I want to stay in the top position. Which one doesn't really matter to me since we are assuming he doesn't have submission or guard skills anyway. If I can get to the mount, choke and then get outta Dodge. If I am in his guard, pass and then see step 1.
If he gets in a position to stand back up or punch me from an advantageous ground position though, I am probably history.
Of course there is no way to prove this since it will probably NEVER happen.
Just my opinion.
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Fighting world class boxers
There is a saying that "You are who you train with!"
If you want to do well as a grappler against a world class boxer, you have to train against them. You have to seek out the best and train with them. That's about all one can say.
After that, well we all take our chances. I'm not saying I can get all world class boxers to the ground, but I feel I stand a better than average chance, particularly if they've not cross-trained.
Of course this is all speculation. I could perhaps just as easily get the SHIT knocked out of me.
But that's why I train like I do. Who knows, I hope I won't ever have to find out (regarding a street fight anyway).
Good training to all!
John
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From what I've seen, I think a really good wrestler, not winded, can take down any non-wrestler pretty much at will.
This is especially true if the non-wrestler is aggressively trying to strike, rather than just defending the shoot.
Funny thing is, I've never wrestled....
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Grapplers vs. Strikers
This shit is SO old now. I see it's NEVER going to end.
One thing people should realize is that there are two BASIC mentalities that fighters have: Striker or Grappler.
No matter how much people cross-train, I feel that every single one of us has a natural predilection for ONE of those mentalities above the other.
It doesn't mean that one is better than the other.
A "natural" grappler should cross-train in boxing and muay Thai, just as a natural striker should cross-train in grappling.
It seems that people want to CONVINCE the "other side" that their's is the CORRECT mentality.
That is just pure BULLSHIT.
Maybe we should stop trying to convince people and spend more time training!
John
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Shrimp, I agree with you completely. I do feel people use it as an excuse.
I also feel that people usually favor one style or the other, and will generally attempt to stress the importance of the style that they are proficient in.
Like I said before, I feel that the whole concept of a blanced fighter is a myth, and come fight time you are going to end up doing what you are best at, and not sit and try ot display your myriad of offensive skills.
Besides, knowing how to grapple does not mean you are guarantedd a victory, or that you will never get knocked out, but I feel that as a grappler your chances of getting knocked are less than if you decided to go toe to toe with a much larger opponent.
Pure boxing will never ever ever ever ever ever ever have a greater percentage of wins over pure grappling no matter how long the earth rotates.
That is what this debate mainly comes down to. We alll know what crosstraining can do for you, but the whole initial purpose of the UFC and freefighting matches in general was to determine what style of fighting has the most to offer.
I think this was determined long ago, and there need be no debate over its conclusions.
And yes Crusher, fighting style does matter, not just who the fighter is, or how tough or game he may be. Both things matter greatly.
Many tough fighters have fought in these tournaments, and due to lack of skills in either style, have fallen.
Being tough, and not giving up alone will not save you. You have to be trained in strategy and skill as well.
[Edited by Linden on 12-31-2000 at 05:54 PM]
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I think any of the boxers you mentioned would fare great against almost any grappler in the nhb. Why? Not only would they KO those guys with one good shot, they are so tuff they could take punches like it wasn't shit. Plus they are big and STRONG, I just don't see any of world class heavy-weights being arm barred by Royce. Think back to ufc 19, this big fat wrestler named something like "the chief" took one good shot in the nose and quit, just wussed out of the fight. Wrestlers and sub. fighters aren't conditioned enough to take punches from a guy like Lewis of Tyson plain and simple.
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Have to disagree
Guys, not trying to burst anyone's bubble on this board BUT...the whole reason groundfighting got so popular to begin with was to take a boxer out of his element.
Now, a boxer spends a great deal of time on his feet training footwork, offense and defense. What he DOESN'T do is work on his grappling and groundfighting.
In other words, you have to know something to defend against it effectively.
So, you take a world class groundfighter and a world class boxer, have 'em fight and the winner will be the one who can maintain his comfort zone--his RANGE.
ON THE GROUND,, groundfighter WINS. On the feet, BOXER wins. The is in regard to PURE artists respectively.
Of course this is really simplistic, but so are the statements you're making based upon pure speculation (and wishfull thinking I might add!)
My take is, a natural grappler is in no way less superior to a natural striker. One doesn't have an advantage over the other. Everyone should realize this by now!
Just my two cents guys, nothing more.
Good training!
John
[Edited by Twisted up on 01-01-2001 at 11:15 AM]
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grappler vs. striker
In my opinionit all depends on the conditions of the fight, such as terrain, lighting,weather conditions. If you are comparing Tyson vs. the Gracies and such I think a grappler may have a tough go at it. Remember that tyson is a street fighter first and a boxer second. I am sure that tyson has been on the ground many times so it is probably nothing new to him. Also, what if the grappler is being bitten or having his eyes gouged by a determined opponet. It is a big difference going to hard concrete when you are used to falling on a mat. what if you are fighting on a glass covered alley or a much stronger opponet who can take you best shot a laugh it off. I doubt that a grappler could really gain leverage on an opponet who could bench press 600lbs. The so called reality shows aren't so real if they are absent of techniques that would maim or cripple someone in a real combat situation. the idea is to survive not to win a belt put on by a promotion company trying to make money.
If I have offended anyone I am sorry, this is just the way that I see it.
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I guess all in all people will use their experience to learn. I have had fights on the cement, and I didn't care. With adrenaline going you don't even realize it. I've grappled on cement, and slammed a guy down on tile so hard, I hit my own head on the ground. I didn't even realize it until after I had won. So I don't think grapplers are that effected by glass, cement, etc. Eye gouging and stuff tends to piss people off if you don't do it right the first time...and even then people will still keep fighting (and harder). So the "what ifs" are a bit unrealistic. Though I do know what it feels like to not be able to take someone down.To this day the toughest guy I ever tried to take down was my father...he was a HS and college champ golden gloves boxer.
Though taking him down was not impossible.
To be honest, I'd much rather fight a non-grappler...
I'm not the best grappler in the world, but have won every striking encounter I've ever had with it. The guys I lose to are the BJJ blues, etc.
and rightly so!
Ryu
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