So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?

[BoarSpear]

okay uke, some of your points i agree with, but remember mma guya are pro atheletes, they can and do withstand more abuse than the average joe. Many of the takedowns and strikes would stop the average attacker. And MOST martial artist are content with that. I agree 100% percent that long range streetfights are gunfights...and those who say "well if the other guy pulls a knife Im dead" well with that attitude, you are dead

and last but not least Hock FREAKIN Hochheim and o yeah i noticed you mentioned Tom Brown in another post....youre losin me here bub...

[Uke]

BoarSpear

Thanks for your comments Boarspear.

First let me say that being that you've trained as long as you have, you know like I know that you shouldn't go out in the street with the shroud of overconfidence. Saying what the average person can and cannot do is assuming that you'll run into the average person. I can't speak to what anyone else has trained for, but when we train, we train as if the person that we'll be fighting will be a better fighter than us, not a lesser one.

And to tell you the truth, being in great shape is a great advantage. But in reality, not everyone is in even decent shape. And if a style is predicated on how well you're conditioned, the majority of the people in America couldn't use it. The "I can beat the average joe" attitude will get you seriously hurt because its usually not the average joe running around mugging or raping people. You put the average joe in prison, and he may come out a little bit tougher, but he'll definitely come out with a stronger willingness to hurt other people if he feels he has to.

And as far a Hochheim goes, he's one of the few that I've heard about that is trying to move forward progressively. I haven't been around him as I don't even think he's in NY, but I hear he's at least moving forward. I have seen EMBAS. Now as far as Tom Brown goes, he's not a martial artist, as far as I know. He's a survivalist who teaches primitive skills. So where did I lose ya, BoarSpear? If you saw Tom Bown's name because you were looking for what I do, just find out who Florendo Visitacion was and you'll know what I've studied and teach. Its not like its a secret, but I haven't made mention of it because of the agenda accusations. But that still doesn't take away from Tom Brown's knowledge as a survivalist at all.

Maybe you could shed some light on what you feel about Tom Brown, BoarSpear.

[BoarSpear]

Thanks for your comments Boarspear.

First let me say that being that you've trained as long as you have, you know like I know that you shouldn't go out in the street with the shroud of overconfidence. Saying what the average person can and cannot do is assuming that you'll run into the average person. I can't speak to what anyone else has trained for, but when we train, we train as if the person that we'll be fighting will be a better fighter than us, not a lesser one.

And to tell you the truth, being in great shape is a great advantage. But in reality, not everyone is in even decent shape. And if a style is predicated on how well you conditioned, the majority of the people in America couldn't use it. The "I can beat the average joe" attitude will get you seriously hurt because its usually not the average joe running around mugging or raping people. You put the average joe in prison, and he may come out a little bit tougher, but he'll definitely come out with a stronger willingness to hurt other people if he feels he has to.

And as far a Hochheim goes, he's one of the few that I've heard about that is trying to move forward progressively. I haven't been around him as I don't even think he's in NY, but I hear he's at least moving forward. I have seen EMBAS. Now as far as Tom Brown goes, he's not a martial artist, as far as I know. He's a survivalist who teaches primitive skills. So where did I lose ya, BoarSpear? If you saw Tom Bown's name because you were looking for what I do, just find out who Florendo Visitacion was and you'll know what I've practiced. Its not like its a secret, but I haven't made mention of it because of the agenda accusations. But that still doesn't take away from Tom Brown's knowledge as a survivalist at all.

Maybe you could shed some light on what you feel about Tom Brown, BoarSpear.

again we agree i said MOST martial artist are content.... that doesn't include me

Hoch might be trying, but before he teaches shit he oughta have someone woth a brain look it over SEE the "ground defense against a knife" thread i started, look at what hoch advocates... i know you were trying to make a point without naming your own styles, but bad examples hurt the cause...

As for Tom Brown, He may well be good at tracking animals, but his stories of tracking down a rogue S.E.A.L. and stealing his gear one piece at a time while the seal slept over a peroid of weeks until the naked seal surrendered from shear terror is UTTER NONSENSE...Tracking animals and men is entirely different, anyone trained and aware of a trackers skill set could and would terminate Tom In very quick fashion.....trackers must move ahead of thier back up, for fear of destroying details, trackers need natural light to work, you have to know an area VERY well to track in it, you have to build and observe templates to see how fast tracks deteriorate to gauge time, you need to know the rain and wind erosion factors and the last time it rained...much of what tom teaches is
probably fine, but he also packages alot of bs to sell....

He reminds me of the guys who teach fair martial arts but claim mysterious teachers with totally hokey marketing for the sheep while claiming to be the best... Tom claims he was taught by an "mysterious indian guide" when he was a child on the farm...LOL

[SamuraiGuy]

Aha, Uke, you assume too much, you say

"You probably know nothing about any of those arts, but you claim that you would be training in them if they existed"

As a matter of fact I do train one of those arts... so go fak yourself ya knob.

Tanto01... as for my "defeatist" attitude... I dont think of that.. I think its a realistic attitude...

You see in the style... that I train in, but I dont know it exists... according to Uke, we learn to try to defend the knife.. and if you do get stabbed... keep defending.. cause your only gonna get stabbed again if you dont... and by defending... I really mean attacking his face... cant stab you if your soccer kicking his face can he...


Now back to Uke,

You claim MMA has no flow , or transition... you simply go from striking.. to ground.. or something like that... jeez have you ever fought before... or hell even watched MMA before... you just claim these guys have no "flow" to their game and expect it to be true... I'd like to let you in on a little secret.. quoting yourself is not supporting your arguments.. its just restating them... it provides no evidence to prove them... if that were true I could just say (no offense to TKD just an example)

"Tae Kwon Doe is simply the best art ever, and no one can touch it.. because its just that damn good..."

Than whenever someone tries to argue that... just quote myself... doesnt work like that bud...

I didnt read all of your post... because you claimed Mixed Martial Artists have no flow... and thats just simply stupid... in sparring... I can tell you quite plainly... people I've gone up against have flown quite nicely through bashing my face in, putting me on the ground.. and working from there... they dont just do this...

Punch... Punch... wait for a second..(oh he looks dazed, I will now proceed to step two)... takedown... wait for a second..(oh hes on the ground, I will now proceed to step three)... side mount... knee on belly.. armbar...

Its more like your getting punched in the face and before you know it the guy is transitioning form knee on belly to the armbar...

[Ronson]

The fact that Uke has time to write and respond each and everytime with long winded, 1500+ word essays, means he ain't shit.

I just came from 2 hours of no-gi SPORT grappling. Yeah it was fun and not once did I feel the need to break out a marker and drill you're stupid knife attack scenario. I'm 28 years-old and I don't worry about the fuckin' boogey man jumpin' out to knife or shoot me. I live a good life and I don't put myself in a position to be a "victim." Plus I'm from Canada biatch! I've got a better chance of gettin' hit over the head with a bottle of maple syrup or dyin' in my sleep when my igloo collapses on me.

That's it. No valid points. Nothing to add to this so-called bullshit debate.
I'm tired from actual training!

Try to respond in 1000 words or less. Damn I'm proud of myself.

Now let's see...www.persiankitty...

[SamuraiGuy]

Hey man.. im from canada too, dont joke about that igloo stuff, mine actually did collapse on me once...

[Tant01]

Tanto01... as for my "defeatist" attitude... I dont think of that.. I think its a realistic attitude...

You see in the style... that I train in, but I dont know it exists... according to Uke, we learn to try to defend the knife.. and if you do get stabbed... keep defending.. cause your only gonna get stabbed again if you dont... and by defending... I really mean attacking his face... cant stab you if your soccer kicking his face can he...


...

Smells like Krav maga... With all due respect, Professor Vee had a much better idea of fighting with real weapons than most modern systems...

He was a pioneer (if there is such a thing) of mixing martial arts. He was introduced to gutterfighting back when it was a BAD THING... After that everything he learned and taught had an edge, so to speak. There is much more here than meets the eye if you do your homework, Samurai.

Don't play with knives. It's a good way to get cut.

[Uke]

again we agree i said MOST martial artist are content.... that doesn't include me

Hoch might be trying, but before he teaches shit he oughta have someone woth a brain look it over SEE the "ground defense against a knife" thread i started, look at what hoch advocates... i know you were trying to make a point without naming your own styles, but bad examples hurt the cause...

As for Tom Brown, He may well be good at tracking animals, but his stories of tracking down a rogue S.E.A.L. and stealing his gear one piece at a time while the seal slept over a peroid of weeks until the naked seal surrendered from shear terror is UTTER NONSENSE...Tracking animals and men is entirely different, anyone trained and aware of a trackers skill set could and would terminate Tom In very quick fashion.....trackers must move ahead of thier back up, for fear of destroying details, trackers need natural light to work, you have to know an area VERY well to track in it, you have to build and observe templates to see how fast tracks deteriorate to gauge time, you need to know the rain and wind erosion factors and the last time it rained...much of what tom teaches is
probably fine, but he also packages alot of bs to sell....

He reminds me of the guys who teach fair martial arts but claim mysterious teachers with totally hokey marketing for the sheep while claiming to be the best... Tom claims he was taught by an "mysterious indian guide" when he was a child on the farm...LOL

LOL, I hear ya. Tom does have alot of hocus pocus in his writings. But I'm not interested in the the tracking aspect half as much as I am in the survival aspect of what he teaches. The tracking may interest me later, but that'll be after I've gotten down the survival skills cold.

As far as Hoch goes, I've heard alot of good things about him. I've never gotten a chance to get him on the mat, but I hear he's making more strides than these other guys, but your point is well made.

[Uke]

Ronson

The fact that Uke has time to write and respond each and everytime with long winded, 1500+ word essays, means he ain't shit.

I just came from 2 hours of no-gi SPORT grappling. Yeah it was fun and not once did I feel the need to break out a marker and drill you're stupid knife attack scenario. I'm 28 years-old and I don't worry about the fuckin' boogey man jumpin' out to knife or shoot me. I live a good life and I don't put myself in a position to be a "victim." Plus I'm from Canada biatch! I've got a better chance of gettin' hit over the head with a bottle of maple syrup or dyin' in my sleep when my igloo collapses on me.

That's it. No valid points. Nothing to add to this so-called bullshit debate.
I'm tired from actual training!

Try to respond in 1000 words or less. Damn I'm proud of myself.

Now let's see...www.persiankitty...

Ronson, call my drill stupid after you've lived some place where the worst violence you see isn't at a hockey game. What's so funny abouy you is that I've met plenty of people with your attitude, but it all changes once they're put in the reality we're all supposed to be training for. If you're not training for a real altercation, you're basically a competitor who trains to "feel" tougher. Leave the forest and come to any city USA after midnight, and you'll be running down the street like Chris Tucker when he was high in "Friday".

[cam427]

I gave up posting to this thread when I realised you how pointless it was to argue with Uke but I have a few questions / statements.

What are you doing hanging around cities after midnight?

I get the feeling you are one of these guys who aplies for a concealed weapons license and the day after he gets it drives around all of the really dangerous neighbourhoods feeling really dangerous .

I also love the fact that you believe that you can end a fight more quickly than someone who does bjj because of your mindset. ha ha ha. That is classic.

Somewhere out there a village is missing it's idiot.

[Uke]

SamuraiGuy

Aha, Uke, you assume too much, you say

"You probably know nothing about any of those arts, but you claim that you would be training in them if they existed"

As a matter of fact I do train one of those arts... so go fak yourself ya knob.

Tanto01... as for my "defeatist" attitude... I dont think of that.. I think its a realistic attitude...

You see in the style... that I train in, but I dont know it exists... according to Uke, we learn to try to defend the knife.. and if you do get stabbed... keep defending.. cause your only gonna get stabbed again if you dont... and by defending... I really mean attacking his face... cant stab you if your soccer kicking his face can he...


Now back to Uke,

You claim MMA has no flow , or transition... you simply go from striking.. to ground.. or something like that... jeez have you ever fought before... or hell even watched MMA before... you just claim these guys have no "flow" to their game and expect it to be true... I'd like to let you in on a little secret.. quoting yourself is not supporting your arguments.. its just restating them... it provides no evidence to prove them... if that were true I could just say (no offense to TKD just an example)

"Tae Kwon Doe is simply the best art ever, and no one can touch it.. because its just that damn good..."

Than whenever someone tries to argue that... just quote myself... doesnt work like that bud...

I didnt read all of your post... because you claimed Mixed Martial Artists have no flow... and thats just simply stupid... in sparring... I can tell you quite plainly... people I've gone up against have flown quite nicely through bashing my face in, putting me on the ground.. and working from there... they dont just do this...

Punch... Punch... wait for a second..(oh he looks dazed, I will now proceed to step two)... takedown... wait for a second..(oh hes on the ground, I will now proceed to step three)... side mount... knee on belly.. armbar...

Its more like your getting punched in the face and before you know it the guy is transitioning form knee on belly to the armbar...

SamuraiGuy, with all due respect, by reading what you've written I now know you have no idea what flow is. None what so ever. I look back to when all I knew was boxing and wrestling and I can understand how you're lost. Flow is not simply a punch or kick. Its not a "secret" or undefeatable "move". The best I can do to describe it is a rhythm developed through training at close quarters for years. In my system, its the arnis patterns that begin to develop a flow, then the jujitsu and other ranges come into play. To many who don't know what they're seeing, it appears to be similar to kempo because of the fludity of the strikes, but unlike kempo, we don't just strike to strike. We strike to break a man down until we can move in and arrest his movements, and finish him, all the while maintaining control. Its a mastery of transition. If you have trouble believing that's possible, and you do according to what you wrote, what does that say about your system or your martial knowledge? And what MMA fighter have you EVER seen flow? Ever?

That was the point of mentioning flow. It helps you to control a man without having to grab him. Of course some of you will say it doesn't exist because its beyond the scope of your training, but all you'd have to do is ask any FMA or Kempo man about flow and they could tell you. Prof. Vee began steering the entire system away from the kempo flow and towards the arnis flow decades ago, and its apparent in the last development. If you've trained in both kempo and arnis, you'd know the difference in the flow, and there's a big difference. Pitty-pat vs cinco tero.

I've never asked anyone to agree with me. Don't make me out to be some Jehova's Witness who is trying to indoctrinate you into what I do. I just wrote my opinions on this topic. No disrespect, but you come across as one of the many little dudes here that defend weight classes because you know what you do won't work without them. Not one of you addressed the weight classes with any competency. And if your sh!t doesn't work without them, what's the point of training in it then? It seems the biggest difference in what we do is that I don't ever train in any way that I wouldn't use to defend my life. Many of you here do, and that's why there's so much talk of what you would do differently in case you had a fight where a guy was trying to kill you. I guess you people don't realize how that sounds.

Also, not that I see eye to eye with Tant01, but he obviously realizes what my style is and who Prof. Vee was. Maybe you should take the hint from him and do your homework before you speak about things you apparently know nothing about.

[Uke]

cam427

I gave up posting to this thread when I realised you how pointless it was to argue with Uke but I have a few questions / statements.

What are you doing hanging around cities after midnight?

I get the feeling you are one of these guys who aplies for a concealed weapons license and the day after he gets it drives around all of the really dangerous neighbourhoods feeling really dangerous .

I also love the fact that you believe that you can end a fight more quickly than someone who does bjj because of your mindset. ha ha ha. That is classic.

Somewhere out there a village is missing it's idiot.

Cam, are you here because everyone else stop caring about what you had to say weeks ago? Or are you breaking knowledge down by amusing yourself with one liners? What's really funny is that everytime you decide to "chime" in, you always end your posts by writing "this should end this thread" as if you're an authority and your opinion is so powerful that everyone should just be left speechless. You're a legend in your own mind.
You're the type of guy who keeps count of sparring sessions and then starts telling people that you're undefeated in over 100 fights.

I love the way you try to twist my words. I never said mindset alone can accomplish anything. But the fact that you cannot adequately debate what was written says more about you than I ever could.

New York is the city that never sleeps. The clubs don't even get going until after 1:00am. And while we train to be able to go wherever we want, whenever we want, Cam trains to make sure he stays indoors and types about how tough he'd be if he had the balls to go outside. I guess Cam teaches all of his students that his style is the best as long as they never go outside. They can just wrestle each other and build up quite a fight record in the process, without ever having to leave the safety of indoors!

Yup, that's reality. His reality. Good luck with that, tough guy.

[OmaPlata]

[what does that say about your system or your martial knowledge? And what MMA fighter have you EVER seen flow? Ever?]

The flow? Last I heard "Boarspear" was doing that dance in the 70's, in the Disco bars

[cam427]

Uke,

How come the word "chime" is in quotes?

This question should definately end this thread!

Ahh. where do I come up with all these classic one-liners.

Anyway I had better get going because it is getting dark outside. Any later and I may run into someone like Uke who will transition me to death.

Cam

[BoarSpear]

[what does that say about your system or your martial knowledge? And what MMA fighter have you EVER seen flow? Ever?]

The flow? Last I heard "Boarspear" was doing that dance in the 70's, in the Disco bars

Oh yeah, studio 54 and kung fu fightin baby

oh btw jusy say discos, the rest is implied, of course there was alcohol, we had to drink sumthin after takin all them drugs! youre just jealous because we could have sex without condoms....disco duck