Judo or Wrestling?

[danfaggella]

to jubaji:

i think that generalizing that black people are criminals is wrong, because the premise does not necessitate the conclusion. However, JUDO is difinitively bases on GRAPPLING positions as well as chokes and submissions, while wrestling IN ITSELF is based on winning in the rules if its own sport, by pinning. These are very logical aruments. If I were to say that in general a speed boat was faster than a tug boat, you would most likely agree, unless you are irational which i dont beleive you are.

all in all, wrestlingis obviously valid in its own ways and offers many things but judo is in itself a martial art, hence, its possitioning and techniques are designed to defeat an opponent, not simply to put him on his back.

[LoneHusky]

It's more to do with economic status than race.

[Jiu Jitsu Monk]

Generalizing about anything could be said to be wrong and is almost certainly dangerous!

But on to the Judo thing; I understand your point about wrestling being a sport and therefore all moves logically are a means to win that competition. However, logically if something an activity is based on a fighting premise, then surely there is the possibility of moves applying to a real situation. Yes Judo is a martial art but we all know it was developed from Ju Jitsu and intended to be a less violent martial art. It has now evolved (I believe) to the extent of being almost ineffective as a martial art and is now a sport i.e. wrestling! A parallel could be drawn to Sword fighting in days of old and fencing now. One was intended to kill or maim an opponent; the other is to score points. The techniques predominantly used and practiced today are not to defeat an aggressor to a conclusion that would be of benefit to the self-defense situation. How can they be when the judoka in a competition performs a throw and if they do not then pin or submit their opponent is a short space of time, they are stood up and start again? In effect to win, all the Judo player has to do is – as you say about wrestling “put him on his back.”

I do believe I am a rational person (most of the time) so yes I would believe in general that a speedboat is faster than a tug. However that is a supposition, based on logic, as we know it due to common perception, not based on fact. I believe judo being an effective martial art is also a logical supposition but not necessarily factual.

[jubaji]

to jubaji:

i think that generalizing that black people are criminals is wrong, because the premise does not necessitate the conclusion. However, JUDO is difinitively bases on GRAPPLING positions as well as chokes and submissions, while wrestling IN ITSELF is based on winning in the rules if its own sport, by pinning. These are very logical aruments.

The problem is that you are not comparing like with like. Both Judo and Wrestling are means to dominating an opponent in physical confrontation. Both are incarnated in modern times as sports. Both developed out of similar forms of combat and have long histories in such context. However, you have chosen to compare only the 'sport' of wrestling with what you seem to claim as the exclusively 'martial' judo in complete disregard of its sport incarnation. Both possess goals and rules in sport that are not necessarily transferable in toto to any and all confrontations outside of the sporting arena. Now, I'll grant that wrestling is rarely if ever taught as a 'Martial Art' these days without regard for the sport, but I do claim that nearly all those with significant experience in wrestling have real, pracitcal experience in applying their particular set of skills to actual 'street' (oooh, people love 'da street'!) situations, while the same cannot be said for nearly all judoka.

[Jiu Jitsu Monk]

Hold on a mo. maybe you miss-understood me. Or maybe I you (and forgive me if I have) but what you have just said is exactly my point. I do not really class Judo as a martial art in its’ current sport orientated form. Therefore, in principle, neither wrestling nor Judo being all that good for the street, unless the practitioner or instructor adapts it. The original questions was about which to do to learn takedowns to complement other training (quote from original message “was wondering whether you think I should train judo or wrestling alongside this to learn takedowns, standup grappling etc”.)

I was merely saying that both had something to offer but, Judo (in my humble opinion) had less useful takedowns. I guess the real point is that the BJJ class should be covering some takedowns.

[EmptyneSs]

dude, even in the sport form these arts are good and usefull. u dont even need to adapt them for them to be effective. u think u are going to be able to easily handle a decent competitive wrestler or judoka in a fight? the fact that they practice as a sport is what makes them good, because it allows them to push themselves so hard and compete vs others.

btw, im assuming this is in the context of hand to hand combat only, cause if u talking about taking on people in the street with weapons, which many people carry, martial arts arent enough. u need weapons like knives and guns. but as for hand to hand combat only, sport wrestling or judo can be extremely effective for real situations.

[danfaggella]

I still cant validate a half nelson in the street over an armbar in the street. Judo is surely sportive but both men are trying to harm each other, not that there arent dirty wrestlers but in wrestling you want the pin, you don't want to take away a persons fighting ability by choking them out or breaking a joint.

[IPON]

I still cant validate a half nelson in the street over an armbar in the street. Judo is surely sportive but both men are trying to harm each other, not that there arent dirty wrestlers but in wrestling you want the pin, you don't want to take away a persons fighting ability by choking them out or breaking a joint.

Just curious why you would go to a "Half" nelson if you were in position for an arm bar

[danfaggella]

who says it was the same position, im just saying wrestling trains you to pin while judo trains you to submit people. in wrestling your going for the pin and in judo your going for the armbar or the choke.

again im not knocking wrestling, i wrestle

[jubaji]

who says it was the same position, im just saying wrestling trains you to pin while judo trains you to submit people. in wrestling your going for the pin and in judo your going for the armbar or the choke.

again im not knocking wrestling, i wrestle

Both wrestling and judo train you to do a lot of things. Both include goals in a sporting context that develop certain skills that, while applicable in a non-sport altercation, wouldn't necessarily be applied in the exact same manner in 'da street'



Perhaps when you have a few years of experience in wrestling under your belt you'll be able to understand the points being raised in this regard.

[danfaggella]

well, if im was a strait wrestler i know how to pin a guy in 'da street'. I know a lot of strait wrestlers who wanna grapple me and think they can submit me with hard headlocks and full nelsons, but that isnt so.

[jubaji]

well, if im was a strait wrestler i know how to pin a guy in 'da street'. .

Why would you do that?

[danfaggella]

well, because i wouldnt know how to choke him or submit him.... they USUALLY dont teach that in folkstyle/freestyle/greco.... they teach you to win in WRESTLING

[jubaji]

well, because i wouldnt know how to choke him or submit him.... they USUALLY dont teach that in folkstyle/freestyle/greco.... they teach you to win in WRESTLING

See my previous comments.







And study some logic.

[Eyegouge]

..................lol^