Forms Really necessary for combat

[Thai Bri]

forms have nothing to do with combat. they are just teaching tools.

Well, what are they suposed to be teaching then?

[pstevens]

Forms are probably combinations of techniques that were used by someone at some time in a combat situation.

Not likely... Forms were developed later as training aids, because masters needed a system of handing down their techniques.

I see definite parallels between forms from various traditiona martial arts and the standard boxing combinations that are taught to aspiring boxers

Apparently, you are seeing something completely different. A punch is just a punch, but when you add mechanics, it becomes functional. A reverse punch is not the same as a rear cross.

The biggest difference is that we now have pads to hit and we are not fighting in rice paddys or uneven ground so we have a much greater respect for the ability to remain mobile.

All aspects of terrain were considered in the military arts, which included martial arts. This has nothing to do with the modernization of the martial arts. Today, we place less emphasis on static stances, because whe have a better understanding of training methods - it’s that simple.

[eXcessiveForce]

we have had this discussion before Bri.


the teach things like,

posture, balance, (keeping your center)
They teach the basics of technique
They aid in memorization of techniques for new students
Rote training of basic technique
Basic combination building and stringing


But they are a static exercise. For combat you need to progress on to dynamic exercises such as sparring or focus mit training as an example.

[shaolin-warrior]

Its exactly that type of idealogy that has left martial arts bastardized and given birth to mcdojoism.
Forms are very important to martial arts and their conception was two fold. At first it was an effective way to memorize a system and pass it on, later they were disguised as dance or ceremony to hide martial training when it became forbidden to practice.
The enlongated and exagerated movements in a form along with the dynamic tension was a way for practitioners to strengthen their bodies, enhance their balance and coordination. That along with meditation, was a tool to enhance focus and intensity. Lets not forget, they had no local gyms with olympic weights.
When watched by a novice, a form seems like little more than a dance number with no real self defence application. Once studied and disected by a skilled practitioner, you begin to realize just how efficent a fighting meathod it is.
Now my opinion is based on five animal kung fu, but ask a true tai chi practitioner his oppinions on form and their practicality and i'm sure they'll agree.
I challenge anyone who does forms as part of their martial art training to take one apart and put it back together and realy understand what it is that your doing. To take the time to LEARN your form. I'm sure you'll begin to see things in a different light.
Sure, no fight was ever won by doing a form from beginning to end. Thats not even a point to argue. Just like a kempoist, the entire kempo may not be needed to deter an attacker, just like the boxer with a three punch combo, the second punch may do the trick. But a trained fighter with strong form should be able to see an opening and draw what is necessary from his arsenal and use it. Its committed to memory, it's engrained in your muscle fiber. Just like typing on the keyboard, if you need a "b", you dont have to type "a" first.
Why do some styles spar with their hands down ? bad form dosent matter, it wasn't necessary to learn proper stance, so what if you hit in the face, lets hope the other guy has poor form too? Any style without form and we'd all be just kick boxers, not that there is anything wrong with that, kick boxers are great athletes, but to truely master a system, you must learn everthing it has to offer. Would you go to a resturant that only served ingredients eat them seperately and say that you got the full experience, or would you want them put together to form a meal. Beware of watered down artforms, your life might depend on something that was neglected to be taught. And as a consumer, make sure your getting what you paid for, who better than you to decide what is important to remember or keep in your arsenal.

[Maxx]

Pstevens, I see your point and while I feel that there is truth in what you are saying, there is also truth in what I'm saying. I'm not saying that I'm 100% right, but depending on the art I believe that my statements have some validity:

For example, Forms use combinations of techniques that at some time were probably used in combat. Some of the more elaborate chinese forms I will admit contain elements that are primarily for show, but certain styles of Karate and Taekwondo contain short combinations which represent basic block and counter or methods of interception. The most modern versions of the forms which I practice were probably not developed by fighters, but the froms that they were derived from, the earlier Pinan forms probably were developed by people who fought and wanted to preserve those things that they found worked.

I also mentioned seeing parallels between certain boxing combinations and older forms. What school of boxing or kickboxing does not throw the jab, cross, hook? It is a staple cobmination. It is practiced in the air, on the heavy bag, on focus mitts and hopefully on a sparring partner. Virtually any school of boxing or kickboxing you go to in the world will teach this combination and practicing it will help develop proper body mechanics, speed, power and timing under the right circumstances. I see a definite parallel there.

Asfor the aspect of terrain, I admittedly know very little about the military arts, but many of the martial arts are not military in nature. Systems like karate were developed from older chinese martial arts by okinawan peasants and wide, low stances were definitely used by people who lived in certain types of terrain. Many Silat Systems from Indonesia made use of deep, low stances so that they could maintain their balance in the rice paddys and swampy ground. Nowadays most training takes place in Dojangs, Dojos or Kwoons where there is either a hard wood floor or firm matting. Fights don't generally take place in swamps or fields now. It's either in the ring, the street or th octagon. Systems have always adapted to be optimal for their environment. It is much safer to be mobile under these conditions than it is to be static.

[eXcessiveForce]

a martial arts system is not it's forms. If that is all there is to it then it will fail when it comes to combat.

forms are tools, nothing more, nothing less. Looking at many forms I can say that not all forms are useful tools. Many lack logical progression (for example a side kick followed by a reverse punch.

Poorly constructed forms are a major problem. A complaint I have with most forms is the foot work used in the forum does not relect the teaching of the system. Linear movemnt, lack of diagnol, or circling or even side steping. Most forms do not contain these type movements.


Forms are still not a primary tool for combat training.

[aseepish]

Bruce Lee on Forms

http://www.jkdcanada.com/Liberate%20yourself.htm

Some relevant points:
...
Prolonged repetitious drillings will certainly yield mechanical precision and security of that kind comes from any routine. However, it is exactly this kind of "selective" security or "crutch" which limits or blocks the total growth of a martial artist. In fact, quite a few practitioners develop such a liking for and dependence on their "crutch" that they can no longer walk without it. Thus, any one special technique, however cleverly designed is actually a hinderance.

...


There are no prearranged sets or "kata" in the teaching of JKD, nor are they necessary. Consider the subtle difference between "having no form" and having "no form"; the first is ignorance, the second is transcendence. Through instinctive body feeling, each of us 'knows' our own most efficient and dynamic manner of achieving effective leverage, balance in motion, economical use of energy, etc. Patterns, techniques or forms touch only the fringe of genuine understanding. The core of understanding lies in the individual mind, and until that is touched, everything is uncertain and superficial. Truth cannot be perceived until we come to fully understand ourselves and our potentials. After all, 'knowledge in the martial arts ultimately means self-knowledge.'

At this point you may ask, "How do I gain this knowledge?" That you will have to find out all by yourself. You must accept the fact that there is in help but self-help. For the same reason I cannot tell you how to "gain" freedom, since freedom exists within you. I cannot tell you what 'not' to do, I cannot tell you what you 'should' do, since that would be confining you to a particular approach. Formulas can only inhibit freedom, externally dictated prescriptions only squelch creativity and assure mediocrity. Bear in mind that the freedom that accrues from self-knowledge cannot be acquired through strict adherence to a formula; we do not suddenly "become" free, we simply "are" free.
...

The most pitiful sight is to see sincere students earnestly repeating those imitative drills, listening to their own screams and spiritual yells. In most cases, the means these "sensei" offer their students are so elaborate that the student must give tremendous attention to them, until gradually he loses sight of the end. The students end up performing their methodical routines as a mere conditioned response, rather than 'responding to' "what is." They no longer "listen" to circumstances; they "recite" their circumstances. These pour souls have unwittingly become trapped in the miasma of classical martial arts training.

-Bruce Lee (Writing in Black Belt Magazine, September 1971)

[aseepish]

That said, do T'ai Chi. It's good for you.

[Sagacious Lu]

OK, I'll let you off the hook. I love forms, form are highly underrated.

Right on

[bartjam]

Do you guys think forms are really necessary for combat?

they are worse than useless: they are counter-productive.

My advice: drop any MA class where they teach forms. Get your ass kicked in an alive art (like BJJ, Judo, Boxing etc.), and learn to fight!

[medic06]

they are worse than useless: they are counter-productive.

My advice: drop any MA class where they teach forms. Get your ass kicked in an alive art (like BJJ, Judo, Boxing etc.), and learn to fight!

yeah, continue to train these arts with no "form"

[Hardball]

I Believe forms are for the TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTIST. I really don't believe they are necessary for combat; in fact the only thing I believe you need for combat is a sparring partner, grappling partner and a heavy bag.

For me, forms are a type of moving meditation almost spiritual in nature. Thus, the traditionalist do them. I love doing forms at the beach on vacation, in the woods, at the park when no heavy bag or sparring partner is available.

I do my forms according to my mood and energy level. When I am angry or stressed I do them hard and fast. When I am relaxed, I do them slow, almost to a flowing tai chi style of form.

I know a lot of martial artist do not believe in forms but I changed my philosophy after Meeting Grandmaster George Dillman at one of his seminars. Sorry to name drop--but it is pertinent to the topic; in fact I have met and trained with a least a half dozen big name Instructors.

My workout/program is comprehensive but I do my forms/kata's every single day. I know 9 different ones from 3 systems total; But honestly, I get a better workout from my speed bag, timing ball and heavy bag.

Sorry to be long winded;

Bowing Out.

P.S. To summarize, yes, I like forms, I'm pro forms and I do them everyday if I can.

[Eric Daniel]

So far most think forms are not "necessary" for combat. Some of you think that forms are useless.I think you should all visit the link below. After visiting the link and reading the article, tell me what you think of the article and if you agree/disagree with what is being said and why or why not?

http://www.judoinfo.com/kata.htm

Sincerely, Eric Daniel

[medic06]

OK, it's analogy time *groan*.

Kata, forms, etc, are like training wheels. Very useful to learn how to ride a bicycle. They restrict you to the proper form until you get used to riding with them. but then there comes a time when the training wheels come off and you are riding for real. After a long time riding your bicycle you tend to forget about what it was like with training wheels. You dismiss them as useless, you don't need them and they restrict you.

And then you start teaching someone else how to ride a bicycle. Without training wheels they fall down repeatedly, and are barely able to go even a few feet. You can't teach them anything because they can't find their balance and fall over and over again. So what do you do? Put training wheels on.

Forms are like training wheels. Useful to train, but eventually you have to grow past them otherwise you are still riding a tricycle.

[Hardball]

So far most think forms are not "necessary" for combat. Some of you think that forms are useless.I think you should all visit the link below. After visiting the link and reading the article, tell me what you think of the article and if you agree/disagree with what is being said and why or why not?

http://www.judoinfo.com/kata.htm

Sincerely, Eric Daniel

You are totally confused. Judo and Jujitsu kata are totally different from karate style kata/forms.