ATTN Ober: Genetic potenial and difference in asians and asian americans?

[BIGGIE]

Just going back to the Eskimo reference. Most people assume that eskimo or Inuits have stocky bodies but I recall reading a reference where the men tended to have broad shoulders and were not "stocky."

The eskimo vs masai warrior was a simplistic example as to why people have certain body types ( long limbs vs stocky build). The idea was that if you take the surface area vs the volume of the body, the masai would give off more heat while the stocky build preserved more heat. One thing that's forgotten is that eskimos wear heavy coats. It's like saying dogs with heavy coats can survive the cold better yet people don't go around naked. Evolution wouldn't work that fast as the Inuits basically are people who got "stuck" in a certain environment and adapted to it for whatever the reason.

[Mik_36]

Responce to Biggie

Your comment on asians in baseball is the exception, not the rule. Let me state why. Baseball in places like Japan is HUGE. With a population something like 150 Million you would expect that they would have the fraction 150Million/250Million(USpopulation) players in the Major Leagues (as compared to the US) right? Instead they have far far less than that. They have far less players in the Majors than places like the Dominican Republic, with a very small fraction of the population of Japan. Also the NFL is HUGE in Japan aswell. You might expect then that there would be all kinds of terrific players coming out of Japan. I don't think I have ever heard of even one player from Japan. The reason why I think they have SOME baseball player and NO football players is because baseball is not AS dependent on athletic ability (i.e. with practice a fair athelete can become a very good baseball player, but you must be a great athelete to be a Football player no matter how much you practice, the exeption my be the QB in some cases). Why is it such a crime to state that the races are different. If someone can look at the roster of pro sports teams and tell me, straight faced, that blacks are not better atheletes, then that person is a straight faced liar. And don't tell me it is because of bad nutrition in Japan, that is just bullshit. They have close to the same standard of living as the US and all the same food, so that will not fly. And listen, White engineering students in collage sports (let alone the NBA) is the exception to the rule and everyone knows it, I'm talking about the general make up of sports teams not a couple of counter examples.
As far as Asians not being interested in sports, that may be the case with the Chinese (I don't know) but I KNOW the Japanese love sports so I just don't buy that arguement.

[Grahf1]

Who said Koreans are pale? To me, they seem darker than most other asians and most caucasions.

[BIGGIE]

>Your comment on asians in baseball is the exception, not the rule. Let me state why. Baseball in places like Japan is HUGE. With a population something like 150 Million you would expect that they would have the fraction 150Million/250Million(USpopulation) players in the Major Leagues (as compared to the US) right? Instead they have far far less than that.

Hate to burst your bubble but what about Americans? As Charles Barkley would say even the bench warmer in the NBA can outplay practically every American period. First, baseball is an American sport. How many Americans dominate Sumo? Same argument. So using your argument how come you're not in the NBA or Pro golf?


>They have far less players in the Majors than places like the Dominican Republic, with a very small fraction of the population of Japan.

Of course, Cuba and Dominican Republic have produced top notch players. But what is driving this? A chance to immigrate to the US and make it in the Big Leagues.
Same thing with Mexican boxers. Why not Swedish boxers?
So are you implying Europeans are genetic duds?
hat happened to the irish boxers? Then the jewish boxers.
Then the blacks. Now the mexicans.

>Also the NFL is HUGE in Japan aswell. You might expect then that there would be all kinds of terrific players coming out of Japan. I don't think I have ever heard of even one player from Japan. The reason why I think they

NFL is huge?! Sumo is but who cares about the NFL?

>have SOME baseball player and NO football players is because baseball is not AS dependent on athletic ability (i.e. with practice a fair athelete can become a very good baseball player, but you must be a great athelete to be a Football player no matter how much you practice,

Not really. To be a great baseball player you need excellent hand-eye coordination. Hence, you missed the obvious - what makes a great athlete. It's obvious what makes a great gymnast or boxer is not the same for a baseball player.


>the exeption my be the QB in some cases). Why is it such a crime to state that the races are different.

It's not. Is it a crime to insist there are differences between the races when those differences ( history of western science favors my argument) can't be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by scientists, that a priori notions are then proven as fact. Line backers to me are not great athletes. Is Tiger Woods a great athlete? He's black. Do you think he can box or play in the NFL? I doubt it.


>If someone can look at the roster of pro sports teams and tell me, straight faced, that blacks are not better atheletes, then that person is a straight faced liar.

Define better? Which sport are you talking about to measure you ideal athlete? You can't.


> And don't tell me it is because of bad nutrition in Japan, that is just bullshit. They have close to the same standard of living as the US and all the same food, so that will not fly.

What are you talking about? In fact the avg japanese height has increased! Again, before I even cared to argue this point, which I certainly don't, you presumed that I would argue this point.

>And listen, White engineering students in collage sports (let alone the NBA) is the exception to the rule and everyone knows it, I'm talking about the general make up of sports teams not a couple of counter examples.

Then why does Indiana produce so many great white ball players? Larry Bird said there's nothing to do but play ball. Every farm has a hoop. Obviously, the state has a culture that favors basketball. Texas's sport is football.
It's the king of sport in Texas. Then why are most swimmers white? Why are most golfers white? Why are most gymnasts white? Why is skiing dominated by Europeans and Caucasoids?
Why do so many amateur white athletes go to college then do not pursue pro sports? They don't care for that. They may be great college players but many go into a more traditional profession. Most people mistake the pro leagues as somehow a reflection of the capabilities of the races.
The college level is probably better since we're looking at the middle stratum of athletes since the pro athletes are freaks of nature. Jordan is a freak. So is Bird.

Where do you get the fact that white engineering students in college ball are the exception? My point is that they are not dumb jocks. Because quite a few are in traditional majors. Do your research. I am not saying the majority are pre med students but there is a concept of the professional athlete. In college, most of the athletes I knew, who were white were in very traditional majors like accounting etc.
They may not be pro level athletes but the fact that they are above avg to almost pro level and alot of them were business, accounting majors etc proved my point. Hence the term professional athlete. Many college athlete are there to rely on sports scholarship.


>As far as Asians not being interested in sports, that may be the case with the Chinese (I don't know) but I KNOW the Japanese love sports so I just don't buy that arguement.

The Chinese love basketball. It's a cultural thing. They don't care for football or boxing. They love soccer. The NBA really made headways into the mainland China. ESPN magazine even had a chinese mainlander who may come to the US. I don't know the details. But my argument is that basketball is an american sport and some Korean dude is good enough to play American pro ball is surprising. Statistically speaking, the guy is a rare exception.
But the odd thing is that there are Japanese players. Think about the fact that an avg baseball team has a miniscule percentage of the general population. Let us forget the possibility of people with traits perfect for baseball but have little interest in it, even one guy from S Korea is a surprise. For example, John Chambers of Cisco was asked why he didn't try to promote asian americans into management positions, he responded that they are not ready. Years later, he said he was right since there are many CEOs or execs who are asian. Guess what? He was partially right. Most of them are Chinese who left companies like Cisco to found their own companies to then get bought out by Cisco and others. So if you believe something is true, your own bias creeps in and you automatically assume you are 100% rational.

The fact is, most mainland chinese are peasants. They would know more about acrobatics or wushu than western sports.

My take is that for certain sports, certain traits will benefit the individual. fast twitch vs slow twitch, extreme VO2 vs low, muscle leverage and mechanical advantage of limbs, nervous system (spastic invidual vs a highly coordinated one) may be present in any of the races. Whether or not it's more prevalent on avg in one subpopulation may be true since some of the best runners are from Kenya but the Kenyans themselves argue it's because they run everywhere when young, the environment forces them to be strong runners, and they're dirt poor. You don't need anything except have the money and time to develop into a top runner. Some of the them make alot of money thy even have people invest in them for that big payoff sort of like people taking care of an aspiring boxer hoping the kid will hit it big.

In fact sports like running are easier to parse out or to look for certain traits. What makes a great basketball player? Things get complicated. That's why track and field has been looked at. But to me running fast is like saying a sports car has a big engine. So? Doesn't mean it has great handling. Get it? You need both to have a great performer.

Why are the top bikers white? If blacks have dominated track and field in sprinting and long distance, then why haven't blacks dominated bike racing? Perhaps less money? Less sports scholarship? Not that lucrative?

You're simplifying a complex issue into blacks are superior athletes. Based on what criteria? The Chinese are the best divers now. The chinese women are top swimmers. The chinese have top gymnasts (male an female) Those are sports they like culturally. Koreans have done well in amateur boxing but they don't do well in other sports. They have no presence. Why aren't blacks dominating skiing? It takes strength, nerves of steel, great coordination and balance to be a top skiier. What about swimming? Pure power for sprinting and pure aerobic power for long distance. Where are the blacks? They dominate track and field in the US but look at the russians? They do well in track and field and weightlifting.

The most mediocre japanese skiier will whip you, my and most people's asses on the slopes. The most mediocre japanese ball player would dominate you, me and the avg American population.

Get it?

[BIGGIE]

by the way, I dug up some info for you:

"Btw, there already have been a few Asian Americans in the NBA. Filipino
Raymond Lewis is a southern California playground legend who played at
UCLA and then had a short stint in the NBA in the '70s. There were some
Japanese American ballplayers back in the '40s who also had stints in the
NBA. "

"There are tons of Asian Americans who have played college basketball.

The first, as far as I know, was Ted Ohashi (Japanese American) -- the official Cal athletic site (www.calbears.com) says he played a few years later, but from Ohashi's own words (which could be blurred from being old now), he played at UC Berkeley from 1929-1931.

Another guy, as Sam can tell you, played at Utah in the 1940s before heading on briefly to the NBA."

": Wasn't there a Korean player drafted in the first round a few years back?
> > : Eugene Chung, or something like that. If I recall, he ended up being a bust
> > : and was out of the league in a few years, but it was pretty impressive that
> > : he was drafted that high.
> >
> > Yah. He was drafted by the Patriots, played a bit for Jacksonville, the
> > 49ers, etc. He might be on some team's practice squad right now.
> >
> > : And didn't UCLA have a guy named Nguyen (Mike?) a few years back?
> > : He wasn't great but he was pretty good, there aren't many asians that
> > : have played for high-profile schools.
> >
> > 1) I've written about Mike Nguyen a bunch of times. Nice to see people
> > read and remember my posts.
> >
> > 2) There actually have been quite a few Asians for high-profile schools.
> > There's always like 1 Asian guy for Cal (right now, Scott Fujita,
> > linebacker and special teams player, who should have a bigger role next
> > year and the following year...used to be a receiver named Patrick Yun),
> > for instance. But, stars are a different story.
> >
> > 3) Another Vietnamese football player's name to throw out there from the
> > Pac 10: Tuan Ve Le."

"To be technical, Chin-Feng Chen, in the Dodgers' Class A minor league organization (San Bernardino), is actually Taiwanese.

But, yeah, there's no racial difference.

Anyway, for all those wondering what the hell happens to those Little Leaguers from Taiwan who win the Little League World Series, well, this is one. And, for those wondering how come all the Asian players in the major leagues are pitchers, this guy is an outfielder.

Here's the full article:

http://sports.latimes.com/news/19990901/bbo/19990901fhcoo3gy.html

Web-published September 01, 1999 | Updated 5:27 a.m. PT

BASEBALL
Chen Is Learning Language of Success
. . Dodgers' Class-A outfielder is hoping to become the first player from Taiwan to reach the major leagues.
GARY KLEIN, Times Staff Writer
"

> : : In last night's Atlanta Braves spring training game, Bruce Chen was
> : : awarded "player of the game". He pitched 5 innings, allowing only 1 run,
> : : and as a batter he got a walk and base hit (off of Hideo Nomo) and a run

I think Bruce Chen just got sent down to Richmond. Bobby Cox is letting Odalis Perez have the 5th starter spot for the Braves.

Tho

>
> : Cool. I wonder if this is the first time in a major league game that an
> : Asian has pitched to an Asian? Unless Nomo's pitched to Park, the other
> : prominent ones are in the AL and happen to be pitchers
>
> I'm pretty sure Asians have pitched to Asians before. That guy Masato
> Yoshii is on the Mets (or is it one of the other Japanese pitchers?), and
> there's been interleague play, too, which has given opportunities to
> Hideki Irabu, Shigetoshi Hasegawa, and maybe that Korean Red Sox pitcher
> (last name Cho...forget the rest right now) to pitch to National League
> players. Plus, Makoto Suzuki, who was signed out of Japan at the same
> time Chan Ho Park signed with the Dodgers out of Korea, pitched in spring
> training for a while, too, with the Mariners.
>


And, this (note: Elson Trinidad = former SCAA regular):

http://pubweb.acns.nwu.edu/~flip/sports.html

"Football great Roman Gabriel - half-Pinoy football star who played for the Los Angeles Rams in the 60s and the 70s and helped them to a Super Bowl Championship (contributed by Elson Trinidad).
From Marian Nebriaga: Roman Gabriel was named 1969 MVP and Player of the Year in the NFL - first Filipino American named as so while playing quarterback with the L.A. Rams.

"He also played with the Philadelphia Eagles. Gabriel was an All Pro for four years, the Rams' Most Valuable Player (MVP) three times, the 1969 NFL MVP and Pro Bowl MVP. While with the Eagles, he was voted the NFL's Comeback Player of the year. He played with the Rams for 12 seasons and with the Eagles for 4 seasons. He retired in 1977 after 31,000 yards and 201 touchdown passes. He set an NFL record for lowest liofetime
percentage of intercepted passes (3.34 percent).

"Since retiring, Gabriel has coached college football and in the US Football League. He now serves as a national spokesman for Sub Station II, Swisher International and Pacer Technology/Super Glue and is involved with a number of charities through his own foundation. He is also about to embark on a career as a radio color analyst for the Carolina Phanters. Source: Filipinas magazine, July 1995. There is a condensed version of this article in Filipinas on line."

: > > Ted Ohashi, '29-'31.
: > http://www.calbears.com/trads/cal-m-baskbl-harmon.html
: > Ted Ohashi was a "a three-year letterman from 1931 to '33"


: >And, yah, once again, Kailee Wong, former All-Pac 10 Stanford player, is

: >Choi, Brian - offensive lineman for New Mexico (freshman)

: >Park, Luis - offensive lineman for Utah (junior)

: >tailback Herman Ho-Ching is now the starting tailback for the University

: There's also Bryan Chiu, ex-Washington Huskie, who now plays for the Montreal

: I also saw a Asian guy with the last name "Kim" play for the Calgary

Also, one more name.

Add Hines Ward, who plays and starts for the Pittsburgh Steelers. He's a Korean adoptee.

2) Just because you see an Asian last name, don't jump to a quick conclusion. Forward Lindsey Yamasaki of Stanford is a freshman, and yah, she's part-Japanese, but she's also part-white (dad = Japanese, mom = white). She's originally from Oregon and was a consensus first-team high school All-American and the next great Stanford women's player in the tradition of Jennifer Azzi, Kristin Folkl, etc.

3) There are other Asian women's basketball players even in the Pac 10. Junior guard Kiyoko Miller of USC, for instance, is a hapa, too (75% white, 25% Japanese). And, freshman Natalie Nakase of UCLA is Japanese, though she's redshirting because she blew out her knee (Miller also is redshirting this year due to injury).

4) There are other Asian women's basketball players all over the West, actually, like at UC Irvine, UC Davis, etc.

5) Since we're on the subject of basketball players, remember this name: 6'8" forward Jason Kapono from Artesia High in Lakewood, California. He's a senior, and he's considered a consensus Top 15 player nationally, as well as the #1 high school basketball player in the state. His high school, Artesia High, is the same one that produced the O'Bannon brothers for UCLA, James Cotton for Long Beach State and the pros, and Avondre Jones of USC/Fresno State. Last year, they lost by 1 point in the state playoff semifinals, and this year, they are favored to win the CIF Division 1 championship (they are ranked as the #1 high school team in all the West). Kapono is 50% white, 25% Hawaiian, and 25% Japanese (his dad, Joe Kapono, is where the Hawaiian and Japanese parts come in), though, interestingly enough, he identifies as black. :P This year, at the prestigious Adidas ABCD Camp in July, which annually attracts the top high school recruits to showcase their skills, he led the camp (300+ players) in 3-point shooting percentage and played in the camp's all-star game. His game, because of his court vision, passing, ballhandling, shooting, defense, perception, unselfishness, and all-around skills, has been compared to Larry Bird's, although obviously, that's a lot of pressure to put on someone. He wants to go to a school where he can play and start right away (so early on he ruled out colleges like UCLA who were trying to recruit him). His final choices are: Utah, UNLV, Missouri, Rhode Island, NC State, Syracuse, and UC Berkeley. Look for him in a few years to hit the NBA.

5) While most of the Asian women in basketball are Japanese (cuz of the J-Leagues), most of the Asian women in golf are Korean -- everyone knows about Se Ri Pak (and some know about Jenny Chuasiporn, too), but there's a whole host of Korean or Korean American women on the LPGA Tour. And, there's even more at the college level (and Korean American guys playing at the college level, too, and there are quite a few Japanese men in pro golf, including veterans like Jumbo Ozaki).

6) Most of the Asian women in pro tennis are Japanese (as in, straight from Japan). There are tons.

[BIGGIE]

Oh, just so more stuff:

>> There are three finalists for the Butkus Award, given annually to
>> America's top collegiate linebacker. Dat Nguyen, the all-time leading
>> tackler at Texas A&M, is one of them, and the other two are USC's Chris
>> Claiborne, just selected the Pac 10 Defensive Player of the Year, and last
>> year's winner, Ohio State's Andy Katzenmoyer, who missed a couple of games
>> and hasn't had as good as year as he had last year (and that's been
>> reflected in voting for All-America teams, as both Nguyen and Claiborne
>> made the Football News 1st team All-American team, while Katzenmoyer made
>> second team).

>> Nguyen should win the Butkus, though whether he does is up in the air.

>> Nguyen might be the best Asian American ever to play football (so far).
>> In fact, I don't think there's any real argument right now, unless you
>> count kickers (which most people don't), in which case former UCLA
>> All-American and ex-St. Louis Cardinal placekicker John Lee could have an
>> argument.

>****** Interesting topic! Nguyen might be *on course* to be the best-ever
>Asian American football player--and I hope he makes out okay in the NFL. As
>someone else noted. E. Chung played offenisve line for a few years in the NFL
>(the Patriots, I think, drafted him). Also: What about Samoans? I believe
>there are some currently playing line/running back in the NFL. What ethnicity
>is Junior Seau at S.D.? Cleveland had a semi-decent fullback for a couple
>years in the 80's who was Asian-Pacific Islander heritage, Tim Monea (sorry
>if my spelling sucks) who was nicknamed "The Tonga Tank."


"Do you know anything about boxing history, especially in the lighter weight divisions? I remember flipping thru Ring Magazine sometime when I was a little kid -- the magazine had listed its opinion on the Top 10 boxers of all time in each major weight division (bantamweight,
flyweight, lightweight, welterweight, middleweight, cruiserweight, light heavyweight, etc., etc.). There were a number of Korean and Japanese names listed in the lower weight divisions."

In fact, filipinos carved a niche for themselves in western boxing.


"True. However, at least on the Olympic level (read: amateur level), the old Eastern bloc nations produced a pack of boxers every 4 years or so who could compete on the very highest level. Same goes for South and North Korea and also sometimes Japan in the lighter weight divisions."

[BIGGIE]

>KNOW the Japanese love sports so I just don't buy that arguement.


So does the chinese or any race in general. People like to play. But Japan is known for the salariman. Work has been a permeating fixture of japanese society especially after WW2.

[Mik_36]

Hate to burst your bubble but what about Americans? As Charles Barkley would say even the bench warmer in the NBA can outplay practically every American period. First, baseball is an American sport. How many Americans dominate Sumo? Same argument. So using your argument how come you're not in the NBA or Pro golf?

--I'm assuming by Americans you mean "white" americans. This is in fact my point (I think somehow you assumed I was trying to say whites where better than other people for some reason), you have not burst my bubble, essentially I was stating that any NBA bench warmer could outplay a white. Second Baseball is as big in Japan, if not bigger than it is in the U.S.. If your argueing that only the place where a sport was first developed can dominate a sport, then this is flawed logic, because if that was the case England would win the world cup every 4 years and the Dominican Republic would not have so many players in MLB. Unknowingly you have proved my point even further with your Sumo comment. A black American (in fact he was in UFC a couple years ago, the David vs. Goliath match) dominated the Sumo wrestling world a couple years ago, he was on Letterman, Jon Stewart etc. for this, I don't know if he still does Sumo. But how many Sumo clubs are there in the U.S, probably around 0. One black american out of 25 million takes it up for kicks and dominates Sumo wrestling (at least he did about 4 years ago, I don't know if he still does it).

--I would also like to comment on this Charles Barkley goof, if I was to publically say something even close to many of the things he has said, blacks and whites reversed, I would be in Deep Shit, see Jimmy the Greek, John Rocker. Such hyprocracy in the U.S., very sad. But I would like to comment on what I believe Charles Barkley would be doing if not for pro sports, I believe "do you want fries with that?" or "hey buddy, got any spare change?" come immediately to mind.

So are you implying Europeans are genetic duds?

--In the area of sports like boxing yes, but like anyone hear would tell you in NHB they have done very very well, better than anyone in the world, (see Shamrock (Irish-American), Rutten (Dutch), Vovchanchin(Russian), etc.)

NFL is huge?! Sumo is but who cares about the NFL?

--Yes NFL us huge in Japan, I don't quite understand what your saying here please specify.

>have SOME baseball player and NO football players is because baseball is not AS dependent on athletic ability (i.e. with practice a fair athelete can become a very good baseball player, but you must be a great athelete to be a Football player no matter how much you practice,

Not really. To be a great baseball player you need excellent hand-eye coordination. Hence, you missed the obvious - what makes a great athlete. It's obvious what makes a great gymnast or boxer is not the same for a baseball player.

--Yes, when I'm talking about athletic ability I should specify, I talking about things like foot speed, strength, not necessarily hand-eye coordination, but of course that comes in it aswell (i.e if your not born with great athletic gift you can't be a great football player, but if you born with average gifts (relatively speaking), if you practice enough, you can still be a good baseball player). No matter how much you practice you can't go from a 5.3 in the 40 yard sprint to a 4.3, it will not happen.


>the exeption my be the QB in some cases). Why is it such a crime to state that the races are different.

It's not. Is it a crime to insist there are differences between the races when those differences ( history of western science favors my argument) can't be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by scientists, that a priori notions are then proven as fact.

--These things have been proven, by science and common sense, even though your government does not want you to hear that. See earlier in the discussion, I believe several people sited studies.

Line backers to me are not great athletes. Is Tiger Woods a great athlete? He's black. Do you think he can box or play in the NFL? I doubt it.

--Yes, I guess it depends on your definition of a great athelete, but to me a Linbacker who can bench 400 pounds, himself wieghs 260 and can run the 40 yard sprint in 4.6 is considered a great athelete by most people, not by skill necessarily but just by pure strength and speed. On the other hand Tiger, no doubt, alot, if not most, of his success is based on skill not just strength. But I will submit to you that there are alot of pro golfers with a short game as good, some better than tiger's, but what seperates him and allows him to dominate is his ability to drive the ball off the tee. This is a different type of strength than the bench press (more of a wirey and quick type of strenght) but it is physical strength which allows him to do this, none the less. And if he had just a average drive, he would still do pretty well, I would imagine, but he would never come anywhere near to dominating like he has. So yes raw strength and speed are to different areas that make up a great athelete. I would say that blacks have got whites beat in both areas. I think that in the strength area it is probably pretty close, but in speed it is not even close, blacks have got us beat hands down.


>If someone can look at the roster of pro sports teams and tell me, straight faced, that blacks are not better atheletes, then that person is a straight faced liar.

Define better? Which sport are you talking about to measure you ideal athlete? You can't.

--I'm talking about all pro sports in the U.S except, hockey and golf, sports where blacks don't particate in large numbers, but even these are changing, there are quite a few black in the NHL now and of course there is Tiger in golf.


> And don't tell me it is because of bad nutrition in Japan, that is just bullshit. They have close to the same standard of living as the US and all the same food, so that will not fly.

What are you talking about? In fact the avg japanese height has increased! Again, before I even cared to argue this point, which I certainly don't, you presumed that I would argue this point.

-Someone earlier in the discussion board had argued this? I guess it was not you, my apologies.

>And listen, White engineering students in collage sports (let alone the NBA) is the exception to the rule and everyone knows it, I'm talking about the general make up of sports teams not a couple of counter examples.

Then why does Indiana produce so many great white ball players? Larry Bird said there's nothing to do but play ball. Every farm has a hoop. Obviously, the state has a culture that favors basketball. Texas's sport is football.
It's the king of sport in Texas. Then why are most swimmers white? Why are most golfers white? Why are most gymnasts white?

--Your white basketball players are the exception to the rule, you know it and I know it, look at the NBA roster.

--Because blacks don't participate in these sports (swimming, golf, gymnastics) in large numbers.

Why is skiing dominated by Europeans and Caucasoids?

--again black don't participate in these sports in large numbers.

Why do so many amateur white athletes go to college then do not pursue pro sports? They don't care for that.

--I don't believe you would honestly argue that a White athelete gives up millions a year for pro sports just because they "don't care for that", come on. Obviously they were not drafted, or were drafted and did not make the pro teams.

They may be great college players but many go into a more traditional profession.
--same ridiculous arguement.

Most people mistake the pro leagues as somehow a reflection of the capabilities of the races.
The college level is probably better since we're looking at the middle stratum of athletes since the pro athletes are freaks of nature. Jordan is a freak. So is Bird.

--if by freak you mean best of the best then yes, by looking at best of the best, you generally can figure out who is the best at something, maybe I'm crazy.

Where do you get the fact that white engineering students in college ball are the exception?
--look at the rosters.

My point is that they are not dumb jocks.
--irrelevent

Because quite a few are in traditional majors. Do your research.
--I have

I am not saying the majority are pre med students but there is a concept of the professional athlete. In college, most of the athletes I knew, who were white were in very traditional majors like accounting etc.

--which collage was this, I'll look up their web site, and look at the rosters myself, and I hope, for your arguements sake, your not talking about some division 3 no name school.

>As far as Asians not being interested in sports, that may be the case with the Chinese (I don't know) but I KNOW the Japanese love sports so I just don't buy that arguement.

The Chinese love basketball. It's a cultural thing. They don't care for football or boxing. They love soccer. The NBA really made headways into the mainland China. ESPN magazine even had a chinese mainlander who may come to the US. I don't know the details.
-- then why no chinese in the NBA, these are 1 billion of them as compared to 25 million black americans.

But my argument is that basketball is an american sport and some Korean dude is good enough to play American pro ball is surprising. Statistically speaking, the guy is a rare exception.

But the odd thing is that there are Japanese players. Think about the fact that an avg baseball team has a miniscule percentage of the general population. Let us forget the possibility of people with traits perfect for baseball but have little interest in it, even one guy from S Korea is a surprise. For example, John Chambers of Cisco was asked why he didn't try to promote asian americans into management positions, he responded that they are not ready. Years later, he said he was right since there are many CEOs or execs who are asian. Guess what? He was partially right. Most of them are Chinese who left companies like Cisco to found their own companies to then get bought out by Cisco and others. So if you believe something is true, your own bias creeps in and you automatically assume you are 100% rational.

--this all comes into the other aspect of races being different, when it comes to mathematics, logical type of work, asians do very very well. But when it come to being creative, innovative, they do terrible. That is why whites and Jews seem to invent things and run companies, and get asians to come in and do the grunt work, once the creative aspects have been taken care of. Name for me, if you will, all the incredable inventions asians have made over the years. If you come up with more than 4, that anyone has heard of, I'll be shocked. Now comepare that with everthing that Whites and Jews have invented. People are different, trying to ignore or deny that just tells me you have been brain washed by our politically correct media. It reminds me of the propaganda machine of the former Soviet Union, most Soviets knew alot of the things the government was saying was incorrect and did not make sense but they were just to scared (and understandably so) to say anything about it.


Why are the top bikers white? If blacks have dominated track and field in sprinting and long distance, then why haven't blacks dominated bike racing? Perhaps less money? Less sports scholarship? Not that lucrative?

--again they don't participate in that sport.


Get it?

--NO





--sorry for my crappy improvised method of quoting etc., I had to improvise this on word because my connection is not working at the moment and so I to cut and past this message from my work.

[Chopstix]

asians don't have creativity or innovation?? where are ou going with this? the chinese invented a lot of things way before the europeans got out of the dark ages. the crossbow (5th century bc), printing press (867 ad) , noodles, tea, glasses, gunpowder(850 ad), silk, compass(1020 ad) , abacus, wheel barrel( 1st century bc), gun (12th century bc), steam cooking(15th century bc), laquar, porcelain, and the list goes on..
im not to sure how you came up with this conclusion, my friend, because its pretty evident that asians have made quite a lot of things that were pretty revolutionary at the time..
i think your bordering on bias and racism in your posts. the original posts were about genetic differences that have been discovered, and the athletic implications they have. you are venturing into cultural and societal differences that is an entire difference subject altogether..

[Mik_36]

I do not want you to get the idea that I want to hurt anyone's feelings, I am just trying to be honest with what my observations are. I could just tow the politically correct line if you would like, but I believe in being honest. The fact of the matter is that the math scores coming out of Asia are far and away better than any coming out of most European countries. I think alot of it might be hard work but I think there is also the possibility that different kinds of peoples brains are built and function differently. I would prefer you not take that as an insult but that is just the way I see it. Am I less of a human being because I don't bench press 500 pounds like the NFL O-Lineman, no I'm just different, not better or worse, just better or worse at different things. Different peoples are different, trying to ignore that is just not being honest with ourselves. When I was invited to a collage football team's training camp and did not make it, should I have been pissed off at the world and said it was because I have white skin, no. I said, I trained hard, gave it my best shot, realized I was not fast enough to play at that level, and got on with my life, and found I was talented in other areas of life, like Computer Science. We have to accept what we can and cannot do in life. Sometimes you can overcome a short comming you might have with hard work but sometimes you will not. I'm sorry but the 5'5 little mexican guy is not going to be an NFL Offensive Lineman, he can pump weights 24/7, he can work like a mad man, but it is just not going to happen, EVER. His best bet is to give up that dream and find what he is good at.

[Mik_36]

I decided to do a little research on some of your claims:

Most historians will claim that the printing press was invented by German - Johann Gutenberg (c. 1394 - 1468) "Inventor of moveable type. Not only did Gutenberg invent the printing press, he even invented solutions to the technical problems posed by his creation. Gutenberg attained such a high degree of perfection, that the principles of his invention remain unchanged to this day."
There was however a very primative attempt at something similar (done in China) which was so successful that it was never used.

"Printing from movable type appeared in China and Korea in the 11th century. In 1041, a Chinese, Pi-Sheng, developed type characters from hardened clay. They were not wholly successful. The oldest text known was printed from such type in Korea in 1397 AD." So I guess they came up with something similar to the printing press but it was not a successful attempt at what we now know as the printing press.
Another quote from the same source.
"Half a century later in 1440, unaware of the crude type developed in the Orient, Johann Gutenberg invented a more successful version of movable type. Until Gutenberg's system of separate characters for printing on a press with ink on paper, all books were laboriously hand written by scribes. Little wonder that historians credit his invention as the beginning of printing, coinciding with the end of the Middle Ages and the beginning of Modern History."

You were correct about the compass however, I did not know that:
"1st century A.D. - Chinese invent first compass."

It would also appear that you are correct about the black powder:

"(black powder) is reputed to be invented by the Chinese"

However, I could not find any sources that would say the first firearm came from China, or the Orient period. The first firearm was credited to be:
"1430 The culverin, a two-man hand held cannon, was introduced." This was the first gun ever (according to my research) and it came from medieval Europe.

On the rest of the inventions you claimed, I guess I'll take your word for it because I have to go to work in a half hour and I don't have time to look all that up. However, all I'm saying is that if all people are exactly the same you would think that since China alone (not including the rest of the asians) has 1/6 the world's population you would expect that 1/6 of the world's inventions would be coming from there, or Africa for that matter. Or at the same time you might expect that every suburban white kid would be able to perform on the same level in standardized math tests as some Oriental kids seem to be able to. No doubt, I think that culture and work ethic has a lot to do with it, but I've become convinced it also has alot to do with the genetics of different races.

P.S- I hope you don't take offence to anything I'm saying, I'm just trying to tell it the way I see it, even when that includes putting my own people down.

[BIGGIE]

Mik,
You completely ignored my references that indeed asians did play in pro sports in the US. College ball to me is more indicative of how the races do in terms of % in different sports because even if you a decent pro player you may not make that much. I knew this huge Chinese american who played college ball but had little interest as he was interested in a profession.

You stated that blacks don't really do well in certain sports due to a lack of participation. EXACTLY. If blcks are indeed superior then they would easily excel in tack and field as in cycling. Like I said, money or professional money and cultural affinity for certain sports are very important.

I don't understand your point about PC or government not wanting to let us learn about racial superiority in sports but The Skeptic had a great article about how those on the left or just those who don't want to visit eugenics and racial bigotry tend to keep a clamp on those who wish to publish or publicize their viewpoint.

But like I have said your opinions are simply not borne out in fact. I really have little interest to know little mexican can't be a great linebacker as there are asian americans who are large and have or are playing in the pro leagues. The references point this out exactly. For example, even if Mexicans tend to be small but what if there is a line backer of mexican ancestry?

I mean there are japanese and one korean baseball player in the pro leagues in the US. For a foreigner to be that good and scouted is remarkable.

You really haven't successfully argued your case. In fact the Chinese are renowned for their ingenuity. Refer to Joseph Needham. His multi-volume work on Science and innovation in China is quite amazing.

For example, look at the Chinese. In Hong Kong, they only fous on making money like those on Taiwan. But on the mainland, there's a tradition of the communist government to support basketball. In fact, there's an Army team that plays other city teams. So because of this cultural affinity and govt support you have potentially great future players. One has been scouted for the US as I had referenced. He's on the cover of ESPN magazine.

So it's not clear cut. You mentioned the black Sumo player.
But that's only one person. Are you now admitting because there are historically asian americans and imports ( recent years) playing american pro ball, that I am correct?

Looking at this black Sumo player, it supports that race is not that important. It's having the genetic tools. Also, he had a keen interest to pursue Sumo. I never heard he dominated as he never held Yokozuno. That's grand champion.
There's a famous hawaiian (American) Samoan who has held that position but now has fallen in rank.

So do you think Sumo wrestlers are a good measure of athletic talent?

[BIGGIE]

Another point I'd like to make is that in Calif, if you look at high school or collegiate ball which is more indicative of "avg" distribution of athletic talent among the races, asians do very well. Their parents wants them to do well in American society so they often excel first in academics but also sports. To me, the NBA represents a tiny percentage of the American population that any meaningful conclusion is meaningless. But if you step down to the collegiate level, there are many white basketball players.

I have noted many blacks going into the NFL. Can you name so players of note?

Like I said, if you were white and wanted to be a lawyer or pursue a MBA and climb the corporate ladder do you want to go into the NBA to be a benchwarmer?

That was my point. I don't see an interest for white athletes to pursue professional ball as a career vs the white athletes in cycling let's say where they need sponsorship or the men who compete in the ironman were originally "hobbyists." Where are the blacks?

You also argued against yourself using the example that what may make a great lightweight boxer (who happens to be mexican) won't make a great pro linebacker. But a boxer is a great athlete. A huge pot belly powerlifter would make a great basketball guard or linebacker? Not necessarily.

Like I have said you ought to do some more research and look at my arguments carefully since you've nullified and contradicted your own arguments.

Good luck.

[Oberleutnant]

Woah... this topic always seems to cause much controversy. I wish I had saved a thread from another forum months to which I made rather lengthy contributions discussing this topic in detail(but with blacks instead of asians), addressing the scientific validity, socio-economic influences and genetics...

I don't have the time for a repeat of that, but I will get back to this later with a few comments, maybe after the dust has cleared, . . . maybe not.

[Grahf1]

Saying Asians don't have any creativity is bullsh*t IMO. They may not have come up with many inventions throughout history, but by looking at movies, video games, medicine, and other stuff I'd say they are very creative.

Also, you say that Asians are good at math but not other subjects. I disagree. At my school, it is very noticeable that Asians dominate the honors classes, and not just math, but science, history, english, etc. In the regular or MCR classes, you don't see that many asians.

These are MY observations, mike.