Mixed Martial Arts, One of the oldest forms of fighting.

[Uke]

Looks like diplomacy (mixed with humor) is working.

Sorry jubaji, looks like its out of your hands - but as long as the net exists, there will be trolls that need a suplexing.

LMAOOOOOOOO

[JkD187]

You know JKD, we could have a decent conversation if you weren't a such a dickhead.

The first post alone on "So you think BJJ is effective for the street" topic had generated more interest than anything you've ever written.

Next, no matter what Couture might have done, he's a wrestler first and foremost as is obvious by watching the man or just looking at his record which shows how he wins most of his fights. Also, if you read what was written, you'd see that I wrote that most MMA fighters don't do well. Never said all.

I applaud the fact that you took the time to give some examples. But you gave about 7 examples out of over hundreds of MMA fighters which just goes to prove what? What you wrote is the exception, not the rule.

And just so you know, assholes like you were all over the urban forum. If you don't like these topics, you should learn to stay in the kiddie pool where you belong.

Hey if you think im a dick thats great your opinion is respected by me.The only reason your previous thread got so many responses was because you pissed alot of people off....dont forget in the begining i had no problem with what you were saying.Second off i never said Couture's main focus was Boxing, we all know its Wrestling but your trying to state that Couture Boxed for a few months ONLY before the Liddell fight which was completely False he Boxed for years before that....only point i was trying to bring up.I even said in my post that most MMA fighters dont do good in other sports but like i said it was the INDIVIDUAL from MMA not MMA as a whole...not every fighter is EQUALLY good as another.As for the Urban forum if there's tools in there trying to act tough then thats up to them however i DON'T post in that forum because im not interested in SSD.If your not interested in MMA then dont post in the forum.

[Uke]

Hey if you think im a dick thats great your opinion is respected by me.The only reason your previous thread got so many responses was because you pissed alot of people off....dont forget in the begining i had no problem with what you were saying.Second off i never said Couture's main focus was Boxing, we all know its Wrestling but your trying to state that Couture Boxed for a few months ONLY before the Liddell fight which was completely False he Boxed for years before that....only point i was trying to bring up.I even said in my post that most MMA fighters dont do good in other sports but like i said it was the INDIVIDUAL from MMA not MMA as a whole...not every fighter is EQUALLY good as another.As for the Urban forum if there's tools in there trying to act tough then thats up to them however i DON'T post in that forum because im not interested in SSD.If your not interested in MMA then dont post in the forum.

First off, I wrote you are a dickHEAD, but I should have written you were acting like one. I don't think your a bad guy, just a guy who feeds into the shit here so much that you're busting my balls and I didn't even start this topic. There are a lot of topics on the category that don't belong, but that doesn't mean that everyone else doesn't post on them.

Also, many people who chose not to act ignorant on the BJJ debate thought was I wrote was not only interesting and true, but thought provoking. I've had many people tell me that they've changed the way they went about perceiving ground fighting and the debate forced them to ask what they really were trying to get out of their BJJ training. Making everyone ask questions about their training and their goals is what we're all(except for a few inbred New England fluffers) here for.

Just keep it respectful and we'll get along fine.

[JkD187]

First off, I wrote you are a dickHEAD, but I should have written you were acting like one. I don't think your a bad guy, just a guy who feeds into the shit here so much that you're busting my balls and I didn't even start this topic. There are a lot of topics on the category that don't belong, but that doesn't mean that everyone else doesn't post on them.

Also, many people who chose not to act ignorant on the BJJ debate thought was I wrote was not only interesting and true, but thought provoking. I've had many people tell me that they've changed the way they went about perceiving ground fighting and the debate forced them to ask what they really were trying to get out of their BJJ training. Making everyone ask questions about their training and their goals is what we're all(except for a few inbred New England fluffers) here for.

Just keep it respectful and we'll get along fine.

Hey that's fine im glad you were able to have some intellegent discussion about it...however these all turn into flame wars eventually and i realize its because of some dumbass Trolls but regardless if you honestly wanted intellegent discussion you could have made a thread about this in the UC forum instead of flaming on someone eles thread.Your not a bad guy either its just that this whole thing is getting old really fast.If you honestly want to learn self defense and you train JUST BJJ your in Trouble....seeing as how the rule is DO NOT take it to the ground....but seeing as how they know JUST BJJ wtf are they supposted to do....and they know it and thats why there insecure about it.The key is Learn BJJ so you DONT go down and be well rounded enough to finish on your feet and that includes Weapons.Just my 2 cents.

[jubaji]

First off, I wrote you are a dickHEAD, but I should have written you were acting like one. I don't think your a bad guy.

But you are.

[Uke]

Hey that's fine im glad you were able to have some intellegent discussion about it...however these all turn into flame wars eventually and i realize its because of some dumbass Trolls but regardless if you honestly wanted intellegent discussion you could have made a thread about this in the UC forum instead of flaming on someone eles thread.Your not a bad guy either its just that this whole thing is getting old really fast.If you honestly want to learn self defense and you train JUST BJJ your in Trouble....seeing as how the rule is DO NOT take it to the ground....but seeing as how they know JUST BJJ wtf are they supposted to do....and they know it and thats why there insecure about it.The key is Learn BJJ so you DONT go down and be well rounded enough to finish on your feet and that includes Weapons.Just my 2 cents.

Well judging by what you just wrote your "2 cents" is a perspective that could save lives. You know, like I know that there are a lot of people that believe that there sportive training equips them for reality. By letting that myth ride, don't you feel a bit remiss by not challenging it when you encounter it? I mean, sure you KNOW the score when it comes to reality. Its obvious by what you wrote. But I thought coming to forums like this meant you were not only trying to learn, but help others who may have exaggerated or untrue ideas about their own training.

This is difficult to do, as you've seen me get attacked left and right by trolls like jubaji. But the idea was to bring to light my points, explain what facts support them and propose a drill so that people could see for themselves what I was speaking about. It wasn't meant to trash BJJ as I have stated many times that BJJ is a comprehensive group of methods to learn to control and escape newaza bouts. Many people who were BJJ practitioners agreed with what I was saying, but the trolls, who were mostly MMA and not pure BJJ players, kept pushing for arguments and clouding the debate at hand.

And being that this is the MMA and BJJ forum, I feel as though everything I've written is relevant here. But if you're honest with yourself JKD187, you can read nearly everything I've ever written and see that I was speaking from an analytical standpoint and not from an argumentative, arrogant one. I've only been rude in response to assholes like jubaji whose only function is to antagonize, provoke and berate others who have contributed their time and experience here. Trolls like them NEVER discuss martial arts, technique or concepts because they have no idea about them. Instead they just comment by using emoticons and tirades and occasionally detailed accounts of how they survived life threatening odds by using gymnastics and WWF styled wrestling techniques. I'm not kidding.

[JkD187]

Well judging by what you just wrote your "2 cents" is a perspective that could save lives. You know, like I know that there are a lot of people that believe that there sportive training equips them for reality. By letting that myth ride, don't you feel a bit remiss by not challenging it when you encounter it? I mean, sure you KNOW the score when it comes to reality. Its obvious by what you wrote. But I thought coming to forums like this meant you were not only trying to learn, but help others who may have exaggerated or untrue ideas about their own training.

This is difficult to do, as you've seen me get attacked left and right by trolls like jubaji. But the idea was to bring to light my points, explain what facts support them and propose a drill so that people could see for themselves what I was speaking about. It wasn't meant to trash BJJ as I have stated many times that BJJ is a comprehensive group of methods to learn to control and escape newaza bouts. Many people who were BJJ practitioners agreed with what I was saying, but the trolls, who were mostly MMA and not pure BJJ players, kept pushing for arguments and clouding the debate at hand.

And being that this is the MMA and BJJ forum, I feel as though everything I've written is relevant here. But if you're honest with yourself JKD187, you can read nearly everything I've ever written and see that I was speaking from an analytical standpoint and not from an argumentative, arrogant one. I've only been rude in response to assholes like jubaji whose only function is to antagonize, provoke and berate others who have contributed their time and experience here. Trolls like them NEVER discuss martial arts, technique or concepts because they have no idea about them. Instead they just comment by using emoticons and tirades and occasionally detailed accounts of how they survived life threatening odds by using gymnastics and WWF styled wrestling techniques. I'm not kidding.

You have an interesting aspect on SSD thats for sure however Next time if you put it in the UC forum so many trolls woulnt pop up....i mean people obviously feel as if your putting down BJJ and MMA espically in this forum.SSD is an interesting topic no doubt just next time lets keep it where it belongs.

[Uke]

By the same token, this is the MMA forum. You pointed that out yourself. Why then, and this is the question of the day ladies and gentlemen, do you feel a need to talk to people about what will or won't be effective in a streetfight in a forum dedicated to the sport of MMA?

Uke, you know I like you and I really respect your analysis when it comes to fight sports, but I think you have a hang-up about MMA that's pretty biased. It's as if you cannot allow yourself to accept that people who train in MMA can possibly handle themselves in a real fight, and you can't bring yourself to see the sport as anything but kickboxing and submissions. I still say it's telling that you're such an avid and knowledgeable boxing fan, and you see no problems with that at all, but when it comes to MMA, you get all wound up. What gives? Why the need to preach at everyone about how ineffective their sport is when it's MMA, but not boxing or any of the other sport martial arts?

I'd like to start off by saying that defending myself is getting tiresome. I've never said that an MMA fighter couldn't do ANYTHING. I don't speak in absolutes, Mike. But what I have been preaching is that MMA is not the best, most effective or most efficient way to spend your time training for reality.

Its amazing to me that no MMA advocate or practitioner wants to take any of the responsibility for debates like this. Sure, I think MMA is a great and entertaining sport. The practitioners reap incredible benefits both physically and mentally. I think MMA sports science and medicine is trying to approach that of boxing and pro football. The athletes are in far better shape than any non-professional practitioner.

BUT THE REAL ISSUE I HAVE HAD HERE ON THIS FORUM IS THAT WHEN THE QUESTION IS ASKED CONCERNING WHAT ART TO TRAIN IN FOR SELF DEFENSE AND PROTECTION PURPOSES, PEOPLE HERE ALWAYS ANSWER BJJ AND MUAY THAI EVEN THOUGH YOU(Mike) AND OTHERS HERE ADMIT OUTRIGHT THAT THE COMBINATION IS SPORTIVE AT BEST!!!

When that fact is brought up, then Mike and the rest of you have gone on to cloud the discussion by claiming that I stated that an MMA fighter couldn't do this or do that. You guys need to get the facts straight. An MMA fighter who does nothing but train could do anything if he received the right instruction and put the time in. That isn't my argument or my point.

My point is that if your goal is to become proficient at self defense and urban combat then your time would be better spent focusing on those aspects and systems that offer instruction in those methods.

What's the purpose of learning how to fight sportive if all you really wanted to do was learn how to protect yourself and stay alive in a mugging or a knife assault? Combat systems do train to improve physical conditioning, but not to a professional level in most cases. But here's the point: Most people in this world are NOT going to be professional fighters. Most won't be pro boxers, kickboxers or MMA fighters. Most DON'T WANT TO!!!! Most don't have the time to invest into that level of conditioning training for the simple fact that they have jobs! They don't have sponsors who afford them the free time to train!

When you advocate MMA, you're telling people that MMA is a great system because you see it work in the ring where its proven. What you leave out is that these men who win in MMA are professionals that do nothing but work and train to improve their craft. They don't work eight hours a day then go train for an hour or two. They spend all day eating special diets, working out and sparring. THAT'S WHERE THE SUCCESS OF MMA COMES FROM. Not from the fact that anyone has found new methods or techniques that are superior to what was being used before the debut of the UFC. That's the beef that every self defense combatant has with the gospel of MMA.

There are more normal people in this world who need to protect themselves than there are MMA athletes who dedicate their days to being professional ring fighters. Normal people who do not devote the amount of time that successful MMA fighters do to their training will NOT be effective using MMA tactics and methods. If anything, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT MMA HAS SHOWN THE WORLD. I respect MMA's toughness and work ethic. Its phenomenal. Anyone who aspires to be successful at competing in MMA must be a workaholic. But that's my point. You're training in methods that you have to work harder with in order to produce a desirable effect.

The philosophy of combatives/self defense has ALWAYS been work SMARTER, not HARDER.

MMA is like a marine mentality method that teaches to "out-tough the son of a bitch by using guts and a superhuman work ethic". I'm sure that appeals to a lot of people. Mostly young, energetic guys who want to "feel" tough and accepted by the guys they admire.

But don't tell people that a method like that is the most comprehensive way to defend yourself or even attack unless you're willing to prove it outside of the ring in competitions that almost always involve weapons. The Dog Brothers competition is probably the most famous, but it isn't the only one or the oldest. These competitions allow grappling and kicking, so there's no reason for MMA fighter's to feel limited in these competitions.

As I said earlier Mike, the scope of reality is based upon weapons because weapons will determine what is and isn't practical. Sure, you can do all types of crazy and risky maneuvers in the ring because you KNOW that you're not going to die for your troubles. When you're training to deal with edged weapons and blunt objects, you can't afford to be shooting in and doing flying knees. I've seen some instructors advocate this in terms of self defense, but ONLY when the attacker is using a knife in a clumsy, looping manner with wide swings. Unless the guy mugging you has no experience whatsoever, he won't be attacking you in that McDojo fashion.

MMA advocates will tell you that its okay to lay on the ground and work submissions while any competent combatives instructor tell you that its the worst possible place you can be in a fight. Sure you'll find yourself being taken down on some occasions, but you don't stay there! You work your way back to your feet ASAP before any real factors come into play like weapons or other attackers.

Mike, your entire argument has been that anything is possible and that anything can work. But what you discuss as possible, and it is possible, is improbable and has been deemed so through years of finding out what kept people alive OUTSIDE of the ring. While anything can work, even jump spinning back kicks, flying armbars and rolling leglocks, combatives is about what is practical and is time proven in most scenarios.

I'm sure Mike could pull off omaplata on a guy he's bouncing at the local bar or club. But if Mike tried that against a man who knew nothing but how to cut and slash without the telegraphed swings and wide strokes, he'd be dead. The man wouldn't even have to be a martial artist. Just a mean S.O.B. who felt like hurting Mike that night. Now, Mike usually asks at this point "Do you think you'd do better?" And my answer is OF COURSE I WOULD! Because I wouldn't be stupid enough to try sportive maneuvers in a life or death situation. I wouldn't willingly go to the guard in a situation with tons of unknown factors. There are other methods than BJJ to get dirty on the ground so that you can get up. And if I found myself there, all my energy would go towards using them to get up, not laying down to work submissions. And if you ask how I know Mike would do those things, its because he's admitted that he has before and they worked for him.

Anybody who would teach their students to attempt risky, unnecessary and flashy techniques doesn't deserve to have students. When your justification of teaching sportive methods to your students as a means of self defense is "I've pulled it off before", then you should never teach.

JKD187 at least admitted that he had no interest in training for SD/UC, but acknowledged that if he did he at least understood the distinction between MMA's sportive methods and SD/UC's more practical and efficient methods. Mike, you seem to be caught up in still trying to give a cow balls to make it seem like a bull when you constantly liken MMA to reality combatives. You've come a long way since our original debate about MMA and SD, but its not my bias that fuels this debate between you and I. Its your insistence that I'm trashing MMA practitioners when I'm only keeping the distinction between them and combatives plain and clear. For some strange yet fascinating reason, you just don't like that distinction, Mike.

In the end, I have respect for most of you as long as you keep it civil.

[Uke]

You have an interesting aspect on SSD thats for sure however Next time if you put it in the UC forum so many trolls woulnt pop up....i mean people obviously feel as if your putting down BJJ and MMA espically in this forum.SSD is an interesting topic no doubt just next time lets keep it where it belongs.

Point taken and said like a gentleman, JKD187.
Even though you said you have no interest in UC, I hope you will come over and contribute from time to time.

[jubaji]

Trolls like them NEVER discuss martial arts, technique or concepts because they have no idea about them. Instead they just comment by using emoticons and tirades and occasionally detailed accounts of how they survived life threatening odds.

As opposed to trolls like you who keep repeating the same tired old biased nonsense over and over and over because their deep and obvious insecurity compel them to.

[jubaji]

I'd like to start off by saying that defending myself is getting tiresome.

That's funny, 'cause reading your bullshit over and over and over is getting tiresome as well.

[jubaji]

But here's the point: Most people in this world are NOT going to be professional fighters.

Therefore you should only train to defend yourself against the oldest, slowest, most out of shape people imaginable!

Yeah, that's a good idea. That way dishrags like pUke won't have to feel bad about themselves.

[jubaji]

They don't work eight hours a day then go train for an hour or two. They spend all day eating special diets, working out and sparring. THAT'S WHERE THE SUCCESS OF MMA COMES FROM. Not from the fact that anyone has found new methods or techniques.

...is what dishrags like you have to believe, because your physical shortcomings are so unavoidably obvious that you have to believe that you have some secret 'technique' that makes the fact that you are physically inferior somehow irrelevant.

That way you can play with your rubber knives all day and convince yourself that you don't need anything else.

[Uke]

I've only been rude in response to assholes like jubaji whose only function is to antagonize, provoke and berate others who have contributed their time and experience here. Trolls like them NEVER discuss martial arts, technique or concepts because they have no idea about them. Instead they just comment by using emoticons and tirades and occasionally detailed accounts of how they survived life threatening odds by using gymnastics and WWF styled wrestling techniques. I'm not kidding.

Jubaji is like the energizer rabbit. He just keeps on confirming and confirming and confirming ....

[jubaji]

Sure you'll find yourself being taken down on some occasions, but you don't stay there! You work your way back to your feet ASAP .

...and of course the best way to prepare yourself to do that isn't to actually take the time and trouble of becoming a competent grappler. No, its much more effective to buy into the fraudulent fantasy of something like 'anti-grappling' and then just tell yourself you've got it all covered. After all, that's what is says on the T-shirt they gave you at the one day seminar!