Mixed Martial Arts, One of the oldest forms of fighting.

[jubaji]

[90% of fights go to the ground, but 90% of self defense situations DO NOT. .

.............................

[Tom Yum]

Teach a man who is 5'4, 150lbs boxing or MMA and put him up against a man who is 6'0, 190lbs but has had a lot of streetfights and done some bouncing and see how well the 5'4 guy does.

Did you ever see Genki Sudo fight Butterbean? Sudo is about 5'6" and maybe 150lbs. Butterbean is about 6'...........................and about 350 lbs. Bean is a superheavyweight toughman champion who KOs heavyweights and has been in some outta the ring brawls.

In the first round, Sudo tookdown Butterbean. Again, Sudo is giving up nearly 200 lbs and is severly lacking in strength compared to the Bean. Sure its a ring match, but the action and contact are real.

Second round, Bean manages to nearly knock Sudo against the ropes with a well time jab, but Sudo does something that almost resmebles a WWE move and looks like he's in trouble as Bean just falls on top of him. Sudo, using his MMA training, maneuvers himself to get a heel hook on Bean.

Bean taps because he can either let his hamhock sized ankle snap from the smaller man's leverage against it or continue on and earn a paycheck in another fight.

Sure they could've fought to the death (like Muaythai matches before 1920 were fought) - Bean would have been on the mat, struggling to get up off his broken ankle using the ropes, while Sudo kicked his head in. Or in a cleaner, more humane way, Sudo could've choked him beyond unconsciousness.

Personally, I would have cringed if Sudo would have killed Bean.

[Tom Yum]

Combat Sports

Uke, while I agree combat sports don't train to kill 100%, they certainly can.

Pankration, as practiced by the Ancient civilizations, was fought until the death. Men were choked passed unconcsciousness, dropped on their heads and beaten passed KO. Sometimes weapons were thrown in the fray.

Muaythai, until the 1920's, was a sport where participants fought until death. Rope-gloves were used, meshed with crushed glass. If you buy into perceptions or personality as a sole gauge of fighting prowess, muaythai fighters from Thailand are just poor, underpriveldged, skinny, wimpy looking, peacefull, non-threatening asian dudes.

Bareknuckle boxing in England and the US were fought until practitioners were laying in pools of their own blood and near dead.

The early days of the UFC were as no holds barred as you can get.

Remember kick boxer Pat Smith? He KTFO of Scott Morris the ninjitsu practitioner, who aggressively rushed the kickboxer and tried to take him down. Pat kept his balance, took the mount and elbowed Morris until his face was a bloody mess and he was badly KTFO.

Remember the Gordeau-Gracie fight? Gerard Gordeau got outgrappled by Royce Gracie. Gracie said that Gordeau bit his ear during the fight. Once Gracie turned the tables, he didn't release his choke when Gordeau tapped and required 250-lb Big John Macarthy to yank him off once he got it in.

I know there are huge tactical differences in the approach of combatives/TMA systems compared to MMA, but the strategic approach is to render your opponent unable to fight.

[DickHardman]

mike, i think uke is just trolling. he keeps claiming you said things you never said, and the more you point this out, the more he does it.

[DickHardman]

martial arts is like religion inmop. there are many different ways to achieve the same goal, yet you have people from all sides claiming their way is the only way and everyone else is wrong.

[gabbah]

Obviously. But it's pretty close, and it's certainly the closest humane way to train for combat to date. So much so that the Army has already adopted it as it's empty handed combatitives and even uses Bjj techniques to fight against knives(and they do this full contact, using a stungun in place of a knife).

They do? Wow that's a cool idea actually! But I guess the stungun can simulate stabbing motions of a knife attack, but not really cutting/slashing?

[JustaFighter]

They do? Wow that's a cool idea actually! But I guess the stungun can simulate stabbing motions of a knife attack, but not really cutting/slashing?

The only reason(as I see it) you would want to pull out a knife on someone would be to cause more damage/harm then what your hands could do with more ease and alot faster. And of course the situation would have to be justifiable. IE your life is on the line.(Since we're all properly socialized people and wouldn't do such a thing on a whim. Right?) Now within this context your goal of attacking someone with a knife should not be to cut him up and teach him a lesson but to stick it inside of him to cause the most damage possible to the individual, and that you can be the one standing at the end of the horrible altercation. So training w/ a stun gun doesn't sound like that bad of an idea. Getting the s#!t shocked out of you is a great way to learn that you just messed up and figuratively speaking at least 3 inches of steel has entered your body and has caused injury. IMHO.

I guess what I'm trying to say is who care about being cut. It's getting stabbed you should worry about.

[jubaji]

martial arts is like religion inmop. there are many different ways to achieve the same goal, yet you have people from all sides claiming their way is the only way and everyone else is wrong.

Hmmmm...interesting. So which MA is which religion?

Wrestling would be one of those old pagan religions I guess, and maybe Taebo would be Scientology?

[Tom Yum]

Going one step further, I've gone ahead and started a thread for the discussion Uke. Nothing left but to make your case.

You, Boar, Jubaji, Dick and I are all insomniacs..LOL.

[Tom Yum]

humiliate themselves if I proved them wrong on a subject.

Are we talking like streaking, nut to butt on a cold winter night?

[Tom Yum]

Hmmmm...interesting. So which MA is which religion?
Wrestling would be one of those old pagan religions I guess, and maybe

Makes sense. Remember when Paul tried to wrestle God ?

Taebo would be Scientology?

Yep.

[jubaji]

Makes sense. Remember when Paul tried to wrestle God ? .

I think it was Job who wrestled with his faith.

[gabbah]

The only reason(as I see it) you would want to pull out a knife on someone would be to cause more damage/harm then what your hands could do with more ease and alot faster. And of course the situation would have to be justifiable. IE your life is on the line.(Since we're all properly socialized people and wouldn't do such a thing on a whim. Right?) Now within this context your goal of attacking someone with a knife should not be to cut him up and teach him a lesson but to stick it inside of him to cause the most damage possible to the individual, and that you can be the one standing at the end of the horrible altercation. So training w/ a stun gun doesn't sound like that bad of an idea. Getting the s#!t shocked out of you is a great way to learn that you just messed up and figuratively speaking at least 3 inches of steel has entered your body and has caused injury. IMHO.

I guess what I'm trying to say is who care about being cut. It's getting stabbed you should worry about.

Well let's say you want to train defending against someone trying to hurt you with a knife, then you want to defend against cuts too right? Afaik cuts can be pretty nasty and deep too. But I guess you are right that a stab to the the stomach, chest or head/throat is statistically more dangerous.

Yeah, that training method should teach you (REALLY teach you, lol) to avoid the "knife" at all cost hehe.

[Garland]

As an atheist...you might not believe me...but NOBODY IN THE BIBLE wrestled God...one of Jacob's brothers wrestled an angel.

Padre Pio, a Catholic priest who is in the process of being canonized, claimed to have wrestled with demons and the devil...he also suffered stigmata, and allegedly had the power to heal with his hands.

This is a recurring trend for saints...if I remember correctly Joan of Arc had similar experiences, and St. Francis of Asisi as well.

There are hundreds of Saints who were hard-core, bad-ass warriors who kicked ass and took names for the name of "God" or were "recooperated" murderers of Christians before going all Jesus.

Some of my favorite warrior-saints from Catholocism are;
Joan, Sebastian, Ambrose, Asisi, Constantine, Paul (formerly Saul...who didn't wrestle with God, was blinded by an angel and the voice of God), and Peter who took a centurion's ear in the garden.

The one passage from the New Testament that I liked, and felt I could relate to when I was "religious" was I think from the gospel of Mark, at the very end, during the crucifixion when Jesus told the theif next to him that he would "see him in paradise". Touching. That sums up what I believe to be the good part of Christianity, the part that everyone claims to hold to their heart but forgets in practice...forgivness and understanding.

The problem is...we are human, and it is human to hate and to begrudge, and to be intolerant.

[Garland]

I think it was Job who wrestled with his faith.

Correction...the thief scene is from Luke, not Mark.


I'm a big fan of Goethe's version of the biblical story. Faust and Job are the same thing read side by side.