Uchi Mata takedown

[Uke]

Uke that was my understanding that there was another style called Judo approximately 100+ years prior to Kano. Do you have information on that earlier style

Of course I do. I'll pm the info to you, IPON.

[SamuraiGuy]

The gogoplata was amazing i saw it live on the web.Aoki does work best from the guard yes but he has his blackbelt in bolth Judo and bjj.The belt rank honestly doesnt matter much to me 7th degree or first...id rather learn from someone who actually pulls of his techniques at the highest levels of competition.Now im not saying those guys arent good its just that if aoki pulls the wrist down then obviously it works pretty good....besides he holds the wrist down to set up the barbo choke off the takedown.

Well the more than 40 Olympians he's trained would be the ones he has pulling it off at the highest level... but no matter....

[JkD187]

Well the more than 40 Olympians he's trained would be the ones he has pulling it off at the highest level... but no matter....

Thats awesome sounds like a great coach...however like i said before in MMA its prob better to pull the hand down when punches are allowed it offers more control.

[SamuraiGuy]

Thats awesome sounds like a great coach...however like i said before in MMA its prob better to pull the hand down when punches are allowed it offers more control.

Who knows it could, and I dont really care either way to tell you the truth, honestly I probably pull the hand down more often than I do up (I'd rather be remembering to pull it up all the time).

I dont see how it would offer more control in MMA though, your still controlling te wrist, and as your throwing them their not really punching you are they.. on the ground you'd still have control of the wrist, who knows.

[J-Luck]

LMAO ... kuzushi was neither developed from randori or inherently from judo. Even the term judo was not created or coined by Kano.

The concept and term kuzushi came from a system of jujitsu which existed more than 200 years before Kano's birth. Randori was Kano's true contribution to the martial arts. Anyone who knows the art and its history could tell you that it would impossible for kuzushi to have been developed from randori because randori came more than 200+ years after the concept of kuzushi had been introduced to Japan from China.

Just like the last debate, some people just make things up as they go along to have something to say.

No... that is what you bring to the table... and always have.

The concept of Kuzushi came far before even that style of jiu-jitsu... It was popularized by Judo. The concept of Kuzushi probably far predates even jiu-jitsu. But, the argument was it was the greatest contribution... i've never heard of that style of jiu-jitsu... nor have most people. What we have been affected by is Judo.

Maybe you should stop making things up as you go along just to contribute to the debate...

[J-Luck]

Correction to above post:

Taking things out of their proper context to do what is percieved as contributing to the debate, but is really just trying to feed ones fragile ego.

[Uke]

Correction to above post:

Taking things out of their proper context to do what is percieved as contributing to the debate, but is really just trying to feed ones fragile ego.

I didn't take anything out of context. You just don't know what you're talking about and it shows. You're just trying to cover your ass now after clearly writing something that demonstrated your ignorance. Let's visit it again:

Kuzushi was more of a concept that developed from randori, which would make it inherently from Judo.

Don't argue with what you yourself wrote. It will just further paint a picture of your stupidity on the forum. You, like some other jackasses here don't even stand behind what you write. Now here you go trying to make it seem like I took your little punk ass words out of context. Let's see about that. Randori didn't come about until Kodakan Judo, Jigoro Kano's Judo. The term and practice of kuzushi existed and was practiced in Japan over 200 years prior to Kano's birth. You just stated and I quote "Kuzushi was more of a concept that developed from randori".

Man up and stand by what you write.

i've never heard of that style of jiu-jitsu... nor have most people. What we have been affected by is Judo.

There's apparently a lot that you've never heard of or studied. Most people are uneducated, so if you feel comfortable lumping yourself in with "most people" I'm fine with that. But before you further make an ass out of yourself, know that there were systems of Judo before Kano's Kodokan that you know nothing about.

Learn something before you post.

[Tant01]

Kuzushi is very often thought of as simply pushing or pulling. At more advanced levels however it is much more than that. For example, kuzushi can also be achieved by breaking the opponent's rhythm, fake attacks, strikes, changes of body position or grip, kiai (a shout), or a sudden change in speed or tempo. A critical element in kuzushi is that it should disrupt more than the body. Kuzushi is very much a mental thing. Kuzushi should always disrupt the opponent's concentration, resulting in a momentary opportunity for an attack. This is one of the reasons confidence is such an important factor in Judo. A strong and positive mental attitude can often dominate a weaker state of mind, resulting in effective kuzushi.
Regardless of the physical size and strength of the opponent, kuzushi will always make a throw work more efficiently. Of course the same principle applies to any technique, including grappling techniques such as chokes and joint locks. Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, made the principle of kuzushi one of the fundamental elements of Judo, distinguishing it from old schools of jujitsu. The principle of kuzushi is still considered to be one of his major contributions to the study of martial arts. Don't neglect it in your study of Judo

The Study of Kuzushi
or "I'm falling and I can't get up"
By Neil Ohlenkamp

[Uke]

Kuzushi is very often thought of as simply pushing or pulling. At more advanced levels however it is much more than that. For example, kuzushi can also be achieved by breaking the opponent's rhythm, fake attacks, strikes, changes of body position or grip, kiai (a shout), or a sudden change in speed or tempo. A critical element in kuzushi is that it should disrupt more than the body. Kuzushi is very much a mental thing. Kuzushi should always disrupt the opponent's concentration, resulting in a momentary opportunity for an attack. This is one of the reasons confidence is such an important factor in Judo. A strong and positive mental attitude can often dominate a weaker state of mind, resulting in effective kuzushi.
Regardless of the physical size and strength of the opponent, kuzushi will always make a throw work more efficiently. Of course the same principle applies to any technique, including grappling techniques such as chokes and joint locks. Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, made the principle of kuzushi one of the fundamental elements of Judo, distinguishing it from old schools of jujitsu. The principle of kuzushi is still considered to be one of his major contributions to the study of martial arts. Don't neglect it in your study of Judo

The Study of Kuzushi
or "I'm falling and I can't get up"
By Neil Ohlenkamp

I haven't forgotten about you Tant01. I just got sidetracked by another more amusing debate. So let me give a clue and some homework to do.

The first system of Judo was founded by Seijun Inoue. Look it up and learn something.

Kuzushi was later taken from Kito Ryu Judo by Kano and used in his Kodokan Judo. Kito Ryu Judo had been established in 1714, 146 years before Kano was even born. Look it up.

This is the second time you tried to challenge me about jujitsu and judo's history. And this is the second serving of humble pie you'll be eating served by yours truly.

[Tom Yum]

This is the second time you tried to challenge me about jujitsu and judo's history. And this is the second serving of humble pie you'll be eating served by yours truly.

I don't think it was a challenge, Uke.

Tant0 is a judo-silat-blade guy and loves nothing more than to participate in a discussion about one of his favorite arts.

[BoarSpear]

The first system of Judo was founded by Seijun Inoue.
Kuzushi was later taken from Kito Ryu Judo by Kano and used in his Kodokan Judo. Kito Ryu Judo had been established in 1714, 146 years before Kano was even born. Look it up.

[BoarSpear]

I don't think it was a challenge, Uke.

Tant0 is a judo-silat-blade guy and loves nothing more than to participate in a discussion about one of his favorite arts.

Agreed, sometimes the hostile trolls here create such a negative environment they cause the people who actually post on topic to be a little irritable and assume everyone is looking for attention through arguments.

[jubaji]

stfu theory-boy

sometimes the hostile trolls here create such a negative environment.

Oh, do you?

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

I haven't forgotten about you Tant01. I just got sidetracked by another more amusing debate. So let me give a clue and some homework to do.

The first system of Judo was founded by Seijun Inoue. Look it up and learn something.

Kuzushi was later taken from Kito Ryu Judo by Kano and used in his Kodokan Judo. Kito Ryu Judo had been established in 1714, 146 years before Kano was even born. Look it up.

This is the second time you tried to challenge me about jujitsu and judo's history. And this is the second serving of humble pie you'll be eating served by yours truly.

Kano also took the idea of emphasizing ground skills more after his students were womped by another school (Kosen Ryu i believe). I heard this in one of my writing fiction classes a few days ago: "Bad writers imitate, good writers steal." i think you could easily swap in "martial artists" for "writers." Shakespeare flat out robbed people of their ideas back in his day, but you never heard of any of those other guys' plays. Though certain ideas were certainly around before Kano, there's something to be said for integrating them into a great system that's become popular throughout the world.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

about pulling the hand down, i think that works here because of the positioning and the fact that he has already closed the distance. in a normal uchimata you pull the wrist up both to help in the pulling/off balancing of the opponent toward you and to creat a space to get under and make your turn (though it's much less pronounced than anything like a seionage). That's the kuzushi and the "fit" (i'm so bad for not knowing the japanese names for "fit" and "execution"). for the execution you do pull the hand down.
This throw in some ways looks closer to the variation uchimata ken-ken, where you don't load the opponent up onto your hip as much but hop in a kinda spiralling motion to get him down. In the variation as in Aoki's demonstration, the throw is being executed from the side. Aoki even briefly demonstrates about half way through the video that he couldn't lift him up and over for a big hip throw, so pulling the hand up would do him no good.