wing chun anti-grappling

[LoneHusky]

some schools have great low ranked grapplers though.

[Red Rum]

I currently train in Kamon wing chun and BJJ. I have seen a lot of different anti-grappling and I have to say that it is deluded.

If you want to counter a grappler, you learn grappling and apply the counter. You don't hear of BJJ guys training anti-wing chun!!

Kevin Chan (and others like him) know that there is a gaping hole in the wing chun system - which is what you do if someone grabs you.

Instead of trying to develop moves through wing chun, they have trained long and hard in BJJ and sombo and build it into the wing chun system.

I have been in fights where the attacker has just grabbed me from behind and dragged me to the floor. You can't resort to your wing chun down there!

I do get annoyed by schools that teach 'anti-grappling' - it destroys the wing chun name (that already has a bad rep).

There are people like Alan Orr and Kevin Chan who don't take these half measures. If you want to spar, learn boxing. Don't try and change your wing chun to suit it. If you want to grapple, learn BJJ or wrestling, don't change your wing chun to suit it.

I think anti-grappling is just an insult to people who train full time in grappling

[Tom Yum]

I'm not really sure what their goal even is. Is this for street defense against an untrained attacker? Is it meant to counter a BJJ black belt? A high school wrestler?

No trained grappler attacks like they show in those videos and no one would just lay there after one kick to the knee. They'd throw a knee bar, X-guard sweep, closed guard, etc in a second. If it was as simple as kicking them in the side of the knee wouldn't guys in MMA have picked up on that like 5 or 6 years ago?.

You brought up a good point here.

There's no focus on what anti-grappling's goal is. From watching the videos, I think it could stop a stammering drunk trying to tackle you. There aren't any direct statements about what anti-grappling's goal is - atleast on the videos.

One side kick to the knee won't stop someone, unless the timing is perfect - it takes about 3 direct side kicks to the knee to put it out of commission, even against a larger opponent and by the time you've landed one, the fight will probably escalate into a clinch, the attacker won't feel it (until way after the fight) and you'll hope that your grappling skills are up to par.

[Tom Yum]

If you want to counter a grappler, you learn grappling and apply the counter. You don't hear of BJJ guys training anti-wing chun!!

Kevin Chan (and others like him) know that there is a gaping hole in the wing chun system - which is what you do if someone grabs you.

Instead of trying to develop moves through wing chun, they have trained long and hard in BJJ and sombo and build it into the wing chun system.

I have been in fights where the attacker has just grabbed me from behind and dragged me to the floor. You can't resort to your wing chun down there!

I do get annoyed by schools that teach 'anti-grappling' - it destroys the wing chun name (that already has a bad rep).

There are people like Alan Orr and Kevin Chan who don't take these half measures. If you want to spar, learn boxing. Don't try and change your wing chun to suit it. If you want to grapple, learn BJJ or wrestling, don't change your wing chun to suit it.

I think anti-grappling is just an insult to people who train full time in grappling

Coming from someone who trains in both styles at the same time, this is good to know.

Do any wing chun styles contain sets of qin-na? I know most Chinese MA styles have their own qin-na and that qin-na is just a small subset of grappling skills (likened to Wally Jay's small circle jiu-jitsu).

Even if there were qin-na sets (focused on escapes?), you're right - there is a gaping whole in wingchun's takedown, takedown defense and ground game.

[Red Rum]

Exactly. Don't get me wrong, if someone grapples me in the street I will not necessarily use grappling (I might punch, scratch, bite, etc to get me out of it), but it is no good saying to someone 'if this scenario happens then we need to use this move' etc. It needs to be adaptive and free flowing.

That is why I always advise people to start in wing chun and then build up BJJ a bit at a time.

People like Kevin Chan (Gracie Brown belt and wing chun master) are fantastic fighters because they can fight close quarters switching between wing chun and BJJ. Once you get into a certain range with him it's game over!!

[Thai Bri]

"Anti Grappling" only came to light after the initial impact the Gracies had on the martial arts word. Many even pretended that they'd had these anti grappling methods all along in Wing Chun/Tsun, but kept them secret! Haw haw haw!

This nonsense has been designed to counter claims that grappling styles are better defence than striking styles (not something I believe in), but typical Wing ChunTsun bull shit has produced tons of horse shit on the issue.

Mind you, if someone attacks me in a highly telegrahed manner and then freezes, I know that my WC Anti Grappling will work!

[Tom Yum]

Yeah, I see why Dj called it horseshit, especially with the secret grappling methods all along.

Ok, so the Anti-grappling folks want to create something in response to the Gracie's impact; if they want to make an original style, why not do what the Gracie's did - add a different grappling art, say shua jiao + qin-na to cover the gaps and take on challengers from different styles?

If it works, it will show itself - right? I'm sure BJJ wasn't always successful in its humble beginnings.

[Garland]

I carry an anti-grapple with me. It doesn't really prevent me from being taken to the ground, but it would really make the other person sorry they decided to take that route.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Anti-grappling is just a method, stradegy or mindset of avoiding, countering, or defending against any type of grappling.

Wing Chun anti grappling is all half assed and weaksauce.

If you want to learn anti-grappling, learn quality grappling and striking. duh.

[DickHardman]

I carry an anti-grapple with me. It doesn't really prevent me from being taken to the ground, but it would really make the other person sorry they decided to take that route.

yup, my anti grappling involves the spyderco MILITARY serrated edge

[Garland]

yup, my anti grappling involves the spyderco MILITARY serrated edge

pretty much what I was getting at...my cheapie ain't that cool, though

[kooky]

Most, if not all, quality "anti-grappling" is developed by athletes with extensive experience and knowledge of grappling.

Some FANTASTIC fundamental stuff coming from the the likes of Karl Tanswell of www.sbguk.co.uk ( Keep it Standing, Anti-Clinch/RIM, Wall Sprawl etc...)

[Red Rum]

There is no such thing as 'quality anti-grappling'

It is like saying I train in anti-Muay Thai. Its nonsense.

Wing chun makes grappling easier as you are more sensitive to what your opponent is about to do, but that is all. You can't try and chi sao someone on the floor (like Jim Fungs academy in America try to do).

It is just a lame excuse for people who can't grapple.

[Blue Wave Gym]

Anti-grappeling is just a way to make people who don't want to train in grappeling or are insecure about grappeling "feel" better yea I can netrualize a grappler because I took this course or learned "anti-grappeling." The best way to learn how to defend against a technique is to learn the technique.Those people would have used their time better just rolling with each other even if they didn't know any grappeling then trying to use thier striking to remain standing while their opponent tried ot take them to the ground at least then they would be getting alive training even if they didn't know any grappleing. How about bringing in a grappeling instructor from time to time to train them in grappeling. Or going to a grappeling schol to learn the basic grappleing skills and how to defend against them.

[jubaji]

Well said, sir!


(can't wait to see pUke read this thread and go ape-shit)