Pride 13 Smackdown: Bjj Humiliated By Wrestling

[Scott Harper]

BJJ shouldn't be only useful if you take a guy to the ground. There are many standing holds, armlocks, etc... to use for finishing a fight. The Gracies have been doing it for a long time. When the challenge matches came and people weren't as knowledgeable on the ground then you took them to the ground. It works great one-on-one and when a person doesn't know much groundfighting.

Mr. Miyagi - I'm trying to figure out part of what you said, "BJJ is an art that is forgiving of physical stature and brute power but MMA requires these." Yes, it should be forgiving of physical stature and brute power. MMA has only recently required those attributes, I guess, because Royce won the first several. Royce wasn't the biggest or the strongest. He went where he was most comfortable and where strength became less of a factor.
In striking the bigger guys hit harder (that's why they have weight divisions in boxing), but as they have said weight becomes less of a factor on the ground (unless a sumo wrestler falls on you). The Gracies started a reputation with the challenge matches and the Octogon, and now they are expected to keep the reputation. Since BJJ is specialized, then you should cross-train.

[dan downard]

Am I the only one who expected Dan to beat Renzo?
It sure seems like you are all surprized.
If you were to watch the intensity that the Quest team trains with.You would not be surprized at all.

[duchman]

dan downard,
move ass back into the choke zone!

[bobby_steeles]

duchman, why don't you go there ans stay there.

americana-you are a dumb****. the only humiliation that exists as far as you should be concerned is the humiliation your mother and father feel every time they look at you.
so two fighters lost a fight--hardly an embarassment.
i watched the video and i can't even see how renzo was knocked out. maybe it's just the low res video.

[Americana]

B.S. (those initials are prophetic for you):

Renzo and Goes disgraced themselves and the bjj community. These guys were supposed to be the cream of the crop. But each got spanked badly. Being knocked out early in the first round is a pathetic performance.

What's more Renzo and Goes have been doing bjj for their entire lives. Coleman and Henderson have only been at this for a couple of years.

It would have been one thing if Renzo and Goes had lost close decisions. But to be knocked out in the first round is really pathetic.

Only in this pseudo sport of mma do we get these sob appeals of "at least they went in there." Renzo and Goes went and there and sucked. For anyone with a brain, this should raise very serious questions about their preparation, game plan and training.

[bobby_steeles]

first of all, don't go busting nut all over your coleman poster because he beat alan goes. nobody considers goes the "cream of the crop", but he was apparently still good enough to spank your boy henderson. renzo's knockout was definitely odd, and that fight was decided in about half a second without your boy even being aware. you can see it in the look on henderson's face as soon as the ref steps in--"huh...what's going on?".

[Ravenman]

Hey Bobby Steeles, is that your real name, or did you adopt it from the Wu-Tang Clan? Cool name either way.

[Americana]

I'ts really funny to watch the post-fight spin among the bjj cult members. The Renzo-Henderson fight is now "odd." Tomorrow it might be "strange" or "funny."

In fact, I've analyzed the tape and just before the knockout Henderson taps. It was on Renzo's head, but I say a tap is a tap.

[bobby_steeles]

apparently you don't read very well. i'm not putting any type of spin on the fight. renzo was knocked out, and that or a submissiion is the only to undisputedly (if that's a word) beat someone. what i'm saying is that the knockout was an odd one-which it was, that you are a retarded dumbfukk-which you are, and also that "wrestling humiliated bjj " is a moronic statement to make, but it is also an expected one considering who made it.

[TKOU]

Ryu,
Words to the wise brother!!! Cross-train or lose!!!

[Mr. Miyagi]

Scott Harper, what I mean is that you can become good at bjj whether you are short and stocky, tall and lean, or anything else in between. You don't have to lift weights or be some kind of natural athlete.

All things are not equal once on the ground, strength and size still count for a lot. Goes got taken down and had a chance to employ that guard that he loves so much but Coleman's brute strength and power were too much for him. Things would be more equal in a competition like ADCC where there is no striking. But in a real fight that allows strikes and the bigger stronger guy is on top of a smaller weaker bjj guy, the bjj guy is in big trouble of getting smashed. Bjj guys need to find a way to end up on top, but against top wrestlers like Coleman, Henderson, Kerr, Couture, Randleman, etc, it's not ever going to happen.

Even if the bjj guys can get the top position, then they go for the mount and still may not be able to finish a good opponent. Wallid worked hard against Shoji on the ground and mounted him twice only to get rolled both times and schooled on the feet. Gurgel worked patiently against Bohlander eventually mounting him, only to get rolled instantly. Barretto has mounted lots of guys and failed to finish them. Without a gi on and against a good opponent, even mounting your opponent does not equate to a victory. On the other hand, a well crosstrained fighter like Belfort would demolish anyone unfortunate enough to be mounted by him. But Belfort is a very dangerous striker who has won most of his fights with his striking ability, not by playing the methodical bjj position game.

We've seen Rickson use the mount to finish all his opponents but he'd never get the mount against any top MW or HW fighter. In fact he'd struggle to get top position. With the strikes on the ground or in the clinch becoming more a factor with each show, I'd seriously worry for Rickson if he were in a clinch with someone like Silva, Ortiz, Mezger, Henderson, etc. But in a grappling only event he'd take them all easily. Success in ADCC style grappling does not have any bearing whatsoever on MMA events, even though it might have used to.

[armhunter]

Renzo still a top fighter

Americana,

Why are you so negative? You sound like a jerk!

Out of all the fights that I have seen Renzo in, He has never been hit. He gets hit this one time and goes out. So yea, duh, we will all think its odd. No matter if you like Henderson or not. You can tell Henderson did not know what happened. Henderson deserved to win, he threw some shots, and they landed. Do I think he can do it again? No. He may be able to beat Renzo again, but not like that. He won't spank him, or run all over him the whole time. He does not have the technique at all.

I knew this would be a hard fight for Renzo. Dan is a very good wrestler, very strong, making him very hard to take down.

Dan Downard
The reason why you are the only one who thought Dan would win, was because, everyone knows Renzo has more technique. So dont be so surprised about that...

The only thing I see is, that this can happen to anyone. Henderson, to me is not an exceptional fighter. He wins, but he does not impress me. Most of his fights are won by decisions. Some of the decisions where even BAD ONES! Carlos Newton, Alan Goes, they both beat him.

You will see this in all sports. There is always those guys, who are not that technical, not that great to watch, but they always seem to win. Henderson is one of them.

[dan downard]

On any given day....a fighter can win or lose.I am just happy that Dan got the W.I never think anything is a sure bet.But,I know those Quest guys train like crazy and have the endurance to prove it.They also learn all they can whenever they can,and use athletisism as well as technique.Did I just invent a word?
But,to put it simply.At world class level,you need to be the one in the best shape.I believe Henderson has this going for him.As well as enough expiereance to know how to stay out of danger.I have my favorites just like everyone else.So I may be a little biased.And,as I have proven in the past.I dont always see things clearly either.
Also,you have to remember that guys like Henderson and Couture have been wrestling with completly differant rules all their lives.They have come a long way in just a few years of training to not only overcome a lifetime of training a specific way.But to compete with and beat worldclass nhb fighters.So,I am very happy for Dan.

[Ronin]

Americana has a point.

Renzo and Goes got smoked. They are great fighters, but they were beaten quickly and decisively. This is a bad sign.

Instead of making excuses, BJJ'ers should be trying to figure out how to get wrestlers on the ground (without getting clocked), and how to keep them from passing guard.

Hallman beat Hughes with a flying armbar. Sakurai and Pele took out Trigg and Hughes with knees. It can be done.

[Scott Harper]

Mr Miyagi,

Are you saying that BJJ will excel in a sport context but not in MMA because of the weight difference now? BJJ should excel in any competition, ADCC or MMA, if not then then there is a need to crosstrain.

Are you saying that Rickson can't beat a MW or HW fighter in MMA? Maybe that it's that since other people know some of the BJJ techniques and they have power that would nullify his vast experience of doing GJJ since he was a kid. I can see your position, but if he cross-trained more then you wouldn't have to worry for him.