Pride 13 Smackdown: Bjj Humiliated By Wrestling

[keithws]

Sorry Armhunter, you're way off on this one!

Dismissing Dan Henderson as a nontechnical fighter borders on denial. I say this because most bJJ players like yourself feel the need to downplay the technical skills of wrestlers.

Go watch an NCAA D1 wrestling championship or an Olympic trials and then come back and tell me there's no technique. Hell, go watch a highschool state championship. Topnotch wrestlers take years to learn enough technique to get to the level of a Henderson or Couture.

No, they don't excel at submissions! But, they're overall grappling techniques have made them the most formidable fighters in NHB.

The ability to control the position to dictate where the fight takes place is far more important than a fighters ability to armbar someone. That's where the superior technique of wrestlers come into play.

I expected Henderson to win and posted on other forums that Renzo would have a long night. Why, cause Renzo wouldn't have the luxury of dictating the fight.

Henderson's not flashy but he definitely has great technique.

later.....

[Americana]

The charge of wrestlers having no technique really comes from a lack of understanding. When Royce and the ufc hit the airwaves back in '94, I remember some traditional martial arts teachers saying Royce has no technique, he's just a brawler. Sounds very stupid now. But in their defense, they felt threatened and really had no clue what they were watching.

[Guest]

You should Respect RENZO. He's one of the few Gracies that is up in the front row, on the battle feild, fighting for the respect of the Gracie famliy name.

[Newbie]

Americana

"What's more Renzo and Goes have been doing bjj for their entire lives. Coleman and Henderson have only been at this for a couple of years."

You're right when you say that "Renzo and Goes have been doing bjj for their entire lives", except you are wrong when you say "Coleman and Henderson have only been at this for a couple of years." Renzo and Goes represent the martial art of BJJ. Colemman and Henderson represent the martial art of Wrestling, and they have also been practicing the martial art of Wrestling for most of their lives. It's not like two guys that have been wrestling for a "couple of years" just defeated two guys that have been practicing BJJ for their entire lives. The wrestling skills Coleman and Henderson posess have taken them a lifetime to develop just like the BJJ skills Renzo and Goes have developed.
When you say that Coleman and Henderson have "only been at this for a couple of years", I know you are referring to MMA. However, why should we compare how long Coleman and Goes have been doing MMA to how long Renzo and Goes have been practicing BJJ?
I also understand that this does not change the fact that two top BJJ practicioners were just defeated by two top wrestlers, except I just felt I had to address this point.

[Tony10]

Originally posted by Ronin
Americana has a point.

Instead of making excuses, BJJ'ers should be trying to figure out how to get wrestlers on the ground (without getting clocked), and how to keep them from passing guard.

This is exactly true, Ronin.

[armhunter]

hey

keithws,

Your right.... He does have awesome techinique. He has what it takes to keep a position and stay out of the bad ones. I guess because my style is Judo/Jiujitsu I am used to trying to pass guard, then establish a position, depending on that position i will pound, or go for submission. Dan will 90% only try to pound, same with Coleman. This is not bad, it just makes the fights last longer then normal, they end up getting tired. Like Coleman always does. I guess what I am saying....

Seeing someone dominate a fight, like a chess match is more exciting then someone just getting knocked out by pounding from inside someone guard, or getting one good shot in and winning.

If Henderson rocked Renzo from standing, that would have been more exciting. Or if they went to the ground and henderson dominated positions and then KO'd him. But none of that happened... A one punch KO and your the one who punched, and not even to know what happened... that sucks.. cause I know Renzo would have had a much better fight then that...

Renzo was dominating on the feet, hitting Dan and even messed up his face... until he went for the take down.

I wanted to see more of a fight....

The fight with Coleman and Goes was more exciting. There was more skill in that fight all around. Coleman passing, locking goes up on all fours, then throwing knees to the head.

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

Hey! Enough... Half of you sound so ignorant its funny.

Allen Goes is a big MW fighting a huge HW. Who the hell did you expect to win? Everyone gave Allen a chance, but seriously, it was a small one only given to him because Coleman is rusty and everyone knows what can happen to him once he gets tired. Thats it. My intructor (Marcelo Perdomo) who used to work in a studio with Francisco Bueno and Allen Goes said Allen used to be 185 lbs. That means thats his natural weight. Even if he gained weight to fight Coleman, it still means he should be at 185 not 210. Even at 210 he gave Coleman 30 lbs. Can you imagine a world class wrestler who is 30 lbs. heavier than you on top of you?

As far as Renzo, he's a Gracie; and Gracie's aren't natural atheletes. MMA is no longer a sport where being good at BJJ means you'll trample your oponent no matter what weight class or natural ability he has. Renzo has no chin also, and Hendreson has decent punching power. That equals a KO in my book. I knew Henderson was going to win but only picked Renzo because he's my favorite fighter. I should've known better, but hey thats just me. It had nothing to do with what martial art they practiced, but rather which fighter I liked better. Dan Henderson is my least favorite fighter followed closely by Coleman, so you can only guess why I wanted the BJJ guys to win.

I'm not making up excuses for BJJ, two fighters went in there and lost. Had nothing to do with BJJ. Both were outweighed and lost. Same with Sak who was also outweighed

[Mr. Miyagi]

Scott, that's exactly what I'm saying. Rickson has no chance against a top MW or HW fighter in MMA. In ADCC rules he'd do very well but with a time limit, he'd still probably lose on points to some of the bigger guys. He can't "just crosstrain" to equalize the balance, much as I can't just "train" in basketball and go guard Allen Iverson. He's not a natural striker. If he fought against Silva or Belfort, his grappling expertise and lifetime of bjj experience would be nullified by a few strong shots to his chin.

[Ronin]

You can't just blame Renzo and Goes' losses on lack of attributes.

Either they went in with a crappy gameplan, or they forgot it when they got there. Two guys of that caliber should have lasted for at least ONE MINUTE. Both of them made big-time mistakes, which got them clobbered.

Shooting on a wrestler is probably not a good idea. Throw some strikes first, at least. Or you're going to get hurt.

[Americana]

Right on Ronin. At the level of fighter we're talking about, getting KO'd early in the first says volumes about lack of good game plan.

Also, I really don't understand the desire on the part of the bjj fanatics to rationalize these fight results to weight advantages. First, the weight advantages here were trivial. Second, if being big were the ticket Paul Varlens, John Matua and Tank Abbot would be the king of mma. But they're not.

[Ronin]

Americana:

It reminds me of the kung-fu guys who say "oh, I'd just pull his hair and bite him". Come to think of it, there are people on this board who still say that.

Denying the importance of takedowns & positioning doesn't change reality. Wrestlers dominate BJJ'ers in those areas, and that is why they are winning. BJJ has to play catch-up.

[Lacrymosa]

This subject is becoming stale.

OK rassling fans, it's obvious that BJJ is inferior. That being said, why not train exclusively in wrestling for the next few years? See where it takes you.

It's sad indeed to hear about a champion like Renzo Gracie walk into a knockout.....maybe not sad to those that insist the Gracies must be perfect to warrant credit for revolutionizing the martial arts.....but all the same, there's plenty of Joes drinking their beer, hooting with delight that the Gracie phenomenon was finally dismissed as a fluke.

Perhaps the Gracie way has become dated.....but being in the BJJ scene for a spell, I've come to one universal conclusion: Knowledge of BJJ is much more valuable to a fighter than knowledge of wrestling. Take that statement any way you wish. I've seen tons of wrestlers step onto a mat......holding various wrestling credentials....even state titles.....and get schooled by a lad that's had six months of BJJ.

Of course, those types of incidents are extraeneous. After all, Jeff Blatnick and the UFC have proven the worthlessness of BJJ. Yeah.....sure......English is a unintuitive and inefficient language.......but most enterprising foreign businessmen take the time to learn it. Why?

It's because English sucks.

[Scott Harper]

Mr. Miyagi, I agree with what you're saying about Rickson. He had his time in the spotlight, but now he can't hang with the big boys in MMA. It is a good idea for him pick his opponents now since he can only do so much to equalize the difference from a heavier weight person now.

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

I'm not sure, but it seems that on the UG its pretty much said that Renzo lost because he got knocked out due to Henderson sprawling and hitting his hip on Renzo's head. Whoever saw the fight, can you confirm this?

[keithws]

Armhunter: Good points and I agree.

I'd much rather see guard passes, changes in ground position, and good standup verses ground 'n' pound.

I've been to a few NHB events (most recently in Colussa) and ground 'n' pound fights were by far the most boring. Romi v. Bohlander in GC was horrible!

Regarding Renzo, he's a stud but he needs to fight guys in his weight class (175 LB). I also don't think his game plan was off. Exchanging strikes on their feet would have worked to Henderson's advantage for sure. He's bigger and stronger. Renzo simply got caught trying to get the fight to the ground.

Hookah: Coleman was down to 225 lbs for the fight. His interview is on Adcombat. Goes weighed 200 lbs plus so the weight disparity wasn't as great as Henderson vs Renzo. The main problem, Goes fought the best fighter in world. How many fighters are there with the potential to pass Goes' guard in under a minute much less win in under 2 minutes?

I definitely think Goes belongs in the middle though!

later dudes.......