Appreciating Frank Shamrock

[Americana]

Frank Shamrock defeated two monster wrestlers: Tito and Kevin Jackson. Our heros Goes and Renzo got their butts kicked. Why?

Because Frank is a three dimensional fighter. For some reason people here love to trash him. But Frank posseses enough stand up striking skills to be a real threat standing up. Tito was forced to take Frank down (where Frank eventually sank a choke in) because he didn't want to trade with Frank.

Compare Frank's stand up skills with Renzo's. Renzo's stand up game is comparable to Ranger Stott. Renzo's stupid flicky jab is a joke. Renzo couldn't beat my grandmother his stand up game.

Also, Frank knows how to do a take down (just ask Igor Zinoviev).

Frank is lightening fast with his submissions. He doesn't take twenty minutes of someone beating on him in his guard to attempt a submission.

I would love to see Frank destroy Silva.

[Ravenman]

"Tito was forced to take Frank down (where Frank eventually sank a choke in)..."

That's not my recollection... and I was THERE, watching with Eugene Jackson...

And I'll add that Renzo did take down a monster wrestler in his second WCC fight with a double-leg with a leg hook finish.

[Americana]

Watch the tape of the fight, Tito got caught in guillitine choke in Frank's guard. That's what ended the fight. Also, every time Tito got uncomfortable with the striking he would take Frank down.

In WCC Renzo took down that little (he was shorter than Renzo) power lifter Phil Benedict. Benedict has no credentials in wrestling.

[stusskilla]

DUDE! why are u bashing RENZO?

Renzo is one of the toughest men on the planet, Do you call Maurice,Oleg,world combat Championship, and the countless nhb fights in Brazil hes done easy or what?
Yah, Franks number one, but dont act like Renzo is anything to just sneeze at, you're very disrespectful.
-stusskilla-

[Ravenman]

Uhhhh.... no. The fight ended with Tito on all fours and Frank standing; Frank landed several elbows and hammer punches to the side of Tito's head, and Tito tapped. Not that it really matters, anyway.

[Americana]

Tito tapped after being elbowed on the side of the head. But he wound up on all fours because of the choke. Tito had nothing left after the choke. Watch the tape.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Americana is mostly right, he's just a little rude about it. Tito lost it following that "almost" guillotine Frank put him in. I still don't think that Frank could beat Silva though, it would go kind of like the Mezger-Silva fight. I don't think he could beat Tito now either. Anyway, I doubt that he'll dare to come back.

[Ravenman]

Maybe true, he might not come back, and he might lose if he did. But in my opinion, Frank was the world middleweight champion after defeating Tito, the greatest of his time.

Okay, that guillotine that didn't hurt Tito, who was just so tired out and beaten that he went down.

[Twisted up]

I agree that Renzo's skills aren't the greatest for NHB. He's got a bit to work on. This last fight proves it.

Consider that Renzo and Dan Henderson are about the same age, have been doing their respective arts/sports for about the same time (since they were both 4/5) and something LEAPS out about the disparity in skills displayed between the two!!!

Attributes my friends, attributes.

My opinion of Shamrock is high like most peoples...............However: He's had some luck running with him as well. Hell, I suppose most fighters have that too--to a certain extent.

I say that Frank should offer rematches to a few of those fellows--namely Tito, and Horne. Wouldn't that be great!

One fellow that I DON'T think would need a rematch to beat Frank, is Vanderlei Silva. The man is a monster and has learned from all his losses.

Silva would be a real challenge for Frank. Not sure where I'd wager on that one but, I'd lean toward Silva.

Tito would tear him a "new one", imho.


John

[FlyingArmbar7]

Frank won't be fighting for awhile, he just went threw shoulder surgery. His arm just hangs there, he hurt it right before the Elvis fight. But he will back, but who knows who will be on top then. If it's Silvia, it would be a great fight, but I think Frank has to much skill for him.

[Hawk]

Goes put Henderson down and had him in a rear naked he would never have got out of. He had to let it go because of a reflex kick that he pulled when he realized what he'd done. The kick had no effect. Still , after the standup Henderson won a decision. Then Henderson got his tail kicked by Carlos Newton and got the decision. Now, Dan is a tough fighter and showed a lot of heart in that fight and all the rest he's been in. So, he nails Renzo. That means Renzo not good? That type BS can only come from someone that's never fought or someone who is so bias he going to rag on GJJ/BJJ no matter what. Hurricane Carter knocked out Emile Griffith in the first round. Emile was the World Welterweight Champion at the time and later went on to be the World Middleweight Champion. He just got tagged. Goes-Coleman was a mis-match from the word go. Alan was giving up way too much weight. I'm not sure why he took the fight to begin with.
Hawk

[Ravenman]

I asked myself why Goes took that fight, too, Hawk. Then I realized that it was a win-win situation. If Goes were to lose the fight, well, no big deal, after all he was giving up lots of weight AND fighting the top heavyweight in the world; and he still gets paid. And if he wins the fight, well, then he's pulled out the biggest upset of the year and redeems some recent losses on his part and on the part of his accociates. Plus I don't think he figured there was any way he'd get KO'd THAT quickly. But of course Goes has been in the game for some time and knows that anything can happen.

It's sort of like a girl picking a fight with a guy. If she kicks his ass, he's humiliated and she's super-tough; and if he beats her up, well, then that outcome was to be expected AND he's considered an asshole.

[Americana]

Hawk:

To rationalize the Coleman v. Goes outcome as a mere weight mismatch is an insult to everyone's intelligence. The UFC asked this very question way back in their David v. Goliath show. Guess what? Many David's won despite huge weight disadvantages:

Bolander beat Ferrozo (Fatrozo had an 80 pound weight advantage);

Frye beat Tank and Matua (each guy must have had 60 pounds on Frye);

Also consider Royce v. Servern (Royce won and I think he was around 175 to 260 to Severn).

Thus, to suggest weight is all controlling is just wrong.

Importantly, Goes was reportedly fighting at 215 to Coleman's 225. It's simply not that much of a difference.

Some bjj guys get so shrilly defensive on these issues it hurts their credibility. Admit it, Goes had a bad game plan and got whooped.

George Foreman destroyed Frazier, but got knocked out by Ali. After the rumble in the jungle, Frazier said I know how to fight Foreman now. BJJ guys should look for a way to win, instead of making excuses for every loss.

[desert eagle]

Does anyone know if Frank plans on fighting again on a constant basis?

[bobby_steeles]

Originally posted by Americana
Hawk:

To rationalize the Coleman v. Goes outcome as a mere weight mismatch is an insult to everyone's intelligence. The UFC asked this very question way back in their David v. Goliath show. Guess what? Many David's won despite huge weight disadvantages:

Bolander beat Ferrozo (Fatrozo had an 80 pound weight advantage);

Frye beat Tank and Matua (each guy must have had 60 pounds on Frye)

so you're gonna compare goes vs. coleman to bohlander vs. ferrozo, and john matua? and bjj'ers are losing their credibility?! LMAO!!!