New questions about GJJ vs BJJ

[Mr. Miyagi]

I've trained in BJJ for a few years, off and on. I've trained at a few different schools, and also rolled with many guys from both BJJ and GJJ schools. I have never noticed a marked difference in technique between the two camps.
I thought at some point it should have been like saying, "that's a crocodile and that's an alligator" in comparing the two, but haven't seen anything yet.
I saw an interview with Royce where he said the difference was mostly in the teaching, in that he preferred to have beginner and inexperienced students drill technique and refrain from sparring until they reach a certain level. I can see his reasoning that sparring to soon might create bad habits. Is that the only difference then?

I read in BJJ history that Helio "refined" the techniques of BJJ to benefit a smaller, weaker player. I can't think of any examples of what exactly has been refined. And I've asked a few people and no one has ever given me an example of what an original technique was, and then what that technique is now with Helio's refinement.
Just wondered if anyone has any technical example of anything....a sweep, a sub, a guard pass, an escape, anything that Helio may have changed.

[Motion]

I read in BJJ history that Helio "refined" the techniques of BJJ to benefit a smaller, weaker player. I can't think of any examples of what exactly has been refined. And I've asked a few people and no one has ever given me an example of what an original technique was, and then what that technique is now with Helio's refinement.
Just wondered if anyone has any technical example of anything....a sweep, a sub, a guard pass, an escape, anything that Helio may have changed.

I read in the current issue of Extreme Fighter magazine(BJ Penn on the cover) with an interview with Carlos Gracie Jr where says that Helio put emphasis on defensive technqiues because being smaller he needed to wait for larger opponents to tire some. So you may want to look at the defensive skills of GJJ to get an idea of what Helio may have refined.

[pstevens]

There aren't marked differences in techniques, just in the marketing.

Gracie Jiu-jitsu (GJJ), the style copyrighted by Rorion Gracie and now taught by his sons, Ryron and Rener, proposes to teach "pure" jiu-jitsu; untainted by sport techniques and true to the original founder's ideas. As such, they have a specific way of teaching and hold all their affiliates to certain standards; even putting schools under probation for not corresponding or failing to meet expectations.

There is a contradiction in GJJ's philosophy, however. For while students are supposedly taught to react to specific self-defense situations, while rolling they execute sport jiu-jitsu techniques. That is, they aren't defending against strikes and don't close the gap, rather they just roll like any other BJJ student. They hold the guard just like the rest of us, where you can get punched in the face. Hence, the sparring of GJJ doesn't reflect the teaching philosophy. Otherwise, they'd be doing MMA. But the most damaging contradiction is that they hold their own tournaments. Isn't a tournament a sporting event?

Furthermore, this idea of being "pure" to the original founder's teachings is nonsense. Gracie Jiu-jitsu continues to evolve around the world grappling scene just like any other BJJ; incorporating new techniques and counters to these techniques. For instance, GJJ schools used to live and die by the stacking guard pass where you leave one arm inside between the legs, while stacking with the other. The result was that their students kept getting triangled in BJJ tournaments, so today more emphasis is placed on double-underhook and knee-slide passes. Why would something "pure" need to evolve?

The truth about BJJ as a self-defense art is that it must be trained as something in between MMA and RBSD to be truly effective in the streets. Otherwise, you still run the risk of getting KOed if you can't secure as safe position right away. Granted there are numerous techniques in BJJ that translate over to fighting, once you're on the ground.

The fundamental techniques of all BJJ and GJJ techniques are the same. However, every instructor will teach things slightly different and some will have bread and butter techniques that are more developed than others. When I trained at Gracie Barra, my instructor loved the kimura and everything he did was based around this technique. In contrast, my last instructor, who was a Carlson Gracie black belt, worked his game around the omo plata. So don't be too concerned about the differences between GJJ, BJJ, Carlson GJJ, Marcelo Garcia, etc... Just continue working and refining your game to develop the best BJJ for yourself.

[Eyegouge]

So how do we catagorize 10thPJJ? Evolution? De-evolution? Re-packaging? Can JJJ, BJJ, and GJJ practictioners afford to ignore?

[Tant01]

Say Judo...

I've trained in BJJ for a few years, off and on. I've trained at a few different schools, and also rolled with many guys from both BJJ and GJJ schools. I have never noticed a marked difference in technique between the two camps.
I thought at some point it should have been like saying, "that's a crocodile and that's an alligator" in comparing the two, but haven't seen anything yet.
I saw an interview with Royce where he said the difference was mostly in the teaching, in that he preferred to have beginner and inexperienced students drill technique and refrain from sparring until they reach a certain level. I can see his reasoning that sparring to soon might create bad habits. Is that the only difference then?

I read in BJJ history that Helio "refined" the techniques of BJJ to benefit a smaller, weaker player. I can't think of any examples of what exactly has been refined. And I've asked a few people and no one has ever given me an example of what an original technique was, and then what that technique is now with Helio's refinement.
Just wondered if anyone has any technical example of anything....a sweep, a sub, a guard pass, an escape, anything that Helio may have changed.

Helio always wanted to take credit for creating something that was given to him by a prominent student of Kano.

Otherwise they'd call it what it IS... (Judo)

[pstevens]

So how do we catagorize 10thPJJ? Evolution? De-evolution? Re-packaging? Can JJJ, BJJ, and GJJ practictioners afford to ignore?

Tenth Planet and more recent "interpretations" of BJJ represent developments in jiu-jitsu. BJJ like any martial art, continues to evolve and rightfully so. Any martial art that remains stagnant will lose efficiency and credibility over time. A good martial art must be a "living" martial art that improves, changes and connects with the times. If 10 years from now you're still doing the same exact thing, then you've gone nowhere; because everyone changes not matter how small the change. Roy Harris (BJJ Black Belt) has said that the way he does BJJ today is much more different than when he was younger. He's had to adapt the way he moves due to changes in age, athleticism, and the evolving art of BJJ.

[pstevens]

Helio always wanted to take credit for creating something that was given to him by a prominent student of Kano.

Otherwise they'd call it what it IS... (Judo)

I agree that Helio took a lot of credit for himself... In truth, Maeda deserves just as much credit in the development of BJJ. But BJJ has evolved enough where it isn't the same as Judo and hasn't been for a long time.

Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is like Judo Newaza on steroids. There are literallly thousands of insane positions available. Judo Newaza or more prominently, Kosen Judo, shares many fundamental techniques with BJJ, but it doesn't have as many ways of getting these positions. From my experience with Kosen practitioners, Kosen Newaza represents a very "basic" (in comparison to BJJ) foundation in ground grappling. Like other styles of Judo, Kosen is very standard in its approach; whereas BJJ is very "open" and "out of the box." For instance, BJJ students jump right in and start learning everything they can and eventually develop their own specific way of doing BJJ.