Why Martial Artists Can't Fight.

[AKF]

jee t,

You seem like a pretty stand-up guy. You're not trying to be an asshole; we're just discussing. I like that.

I hear what you're saying about guys wanting to look like 'men' during a fight. But i'm not talking about two college preppies thrown down over some phrat dispute, i'm talking about a legit street fighter who wants to hurt you bad. In my years as a bouncer in both big bars and major concerts, I can tell you for real that street fighters don't care what they look like or whose watching. Whatever it takes, they're going to do it.

dzl 256,

I also hear you buddy. But I think what Bri Thai is talking about is basic karate and TKD bullshit places that teach kata's and 'air punching/kicking'. Street fighters who take martial arts, but know dam well how to apply what they're learning -- that's a different story.


Bri Thai... Where you at? You started this mess, come on and clean it up for us!

[Brokenmace]

Robertlee, you bring up good points sometimes, but I'm wondering if you could use punctuation and paragraphs occasionally. My eyeballs get stretched reading your posts. No offense . . .

Anyway, no one around here really talks about street fighting unless it is assumed that running isn't a viable option. The martial arts aren't fantasy. They were designed by and for people who fight, either by choice or not.

I'd like to stop this talk of running. Running isn't martial arts, no matter what some might like us to think.

No one here trains to run away, however proper and well-advised it may be at times. If you train to run away, you are not training to fight. You are training to run away.

Brit Thai's second point is easy to solve. It is a matter of visualization training and proper breathing. This isn't a joke or fantasy. It isn't mystic. We all know that, to a great degree, the mind controls the body. If this weren't so, none of us would bother training.

You should consider every kind of assault and imagine your response. Think of being attacked from behind, while sitting, and in tight quarters, even on slippery or dangerous ground. Decide what is the simplest and most efficient way of destroying your opponent. Do this for an hour at least before bedtime and for an hour during the morning as you go through your routines.

After a workout, sit and close your eyes. Breathe in on a slow two count, hold for a slow one count, breathe out for a slow three count. The counts can be any count as long as the ratios remain the same: 2-1-3 is just simple to remember.

Now, when you are attacked breathe this way. During survival stress the body goes through changes. The most important is that the heart rate increases, as well as blood pressure. If your heart rate rises above 145 bpm, then your goose is probably cooked, especially if you've trained in Karate or TKD. At this point fine motor skills (anything requiring functioning of small muscle groups) and complex action of more than three steps are practically impossible to pull off.

You breathe to reduce heart rate, and you've already visualized what to do. Don't forget to practice what you visualize with a partner at full contact over and over.

That should be a good start.

[rashadk]

You can't really say "Martial Artists can't fight"

And there are many reasons to that:

1. I believe that most "martial arts" were never intended to be used in a self defense situation. Why? because it is simply an "art" just like the name implies. Board-Breaking, Kata's (Weapons or Bare-hands) were originally used for demonstration purposes for the masses or rulers back in the days of old (Great example = Wu Shu).

2. The reason why I believe that alot of us over the years have become to think that martial arts are to be used for fighting was either.

We figured since the demonstraters "looked" like they knew how to fight that they must know how!

Some kung fu practitioners in demostrations fasely made others believe that there martial art made them highly skilled fighters in combat. (another good example, sometimes in public karate practitioners would break multiple boards, or blocks of ice that would awe the crowd and make them believe that they could do that to someone in a real fight, which is really scarey might i add if they could!!!)

Also, I know everyone remembers the ole invincible ninja. Who could turn invisible, shoot fire out it's mouth, raise the dead, etc... But later on alot of people found out that it was only myth and deception created in people's own mind. I feel the same way with "martial arts". I think that threw the demontrations of awe that many people grew to fear martial arts in their own mind. And many martial art practitioners grew of that.

Now, don't get me wrong. You can still use martial arts in a real fight to some degree, but then there are problems. If you strike someone first with a palm to the nose then you can knock someone out. Problem is if you strike him first than you are not trying to avoid the fight (90% of the time) so really you are not following the teachings of real martial arts which are actually to avoid fights.

Lastly, because I am getting tired (it is 3:00 in the morning) I am going to say this. I train in TKD and Muay Thai. Now, any time I try to sparr with a decent TKD artist in TKD tournament sparring I have a very difficult time. Why? becuase I am not use to fighting with certain "rules" to where the TKD artist is comfortable with those rules (Even though I have to fight the urge of just giving them one good knee to the face!!!).My point is this, lets reverse the situation. In a street fight, Street Fighter vs. Martial Artist. The street fighter is in his/her enviroment so they are very comfortable where the Martial artist as a "demonstrate" is completely out of his enviroment. It's like Man vs. Shark. In water, the man has no chance. But on Land, the Shark has no chance (Get what I mean?)

Bottom Line, Street fighters use there skill to fight on the "street". (hence the name). Martial artists use there skill as an "art" for demonstration or self-development.(hence the name "art")

[Guest]

So, Martial Arts were developed for demonstration purposes, and real fighting became an offshoot?

I DON'T THNK SO!

Naw, men have gone to war since time began. The martial arts were developed to fight, and demonstrations became an off shoot. Ya Gonk!

[pcarney]

Originally posted by Bri Thai

Naw, men have gone to war since time began. The martial arts were developed to fight, and demonstrations became an off shoot. Ya Gonk!

Yes, but do you really think people trained for war by learning unarmed combat? Granted, this might augment your chance of surviving on a battlefield, but sword vs. empty hands, we all know who wins. My point being that 'battlefield' martial arts, by necessity, were primarily armed combat. Its interesting to see how these arts evolved/were dilluted into the forms they take today.

As far as why many martial artists can't fight, good points. Another reason is that most schools seem to be fixated on the 'duel'- that is, two combatants, fully aware of the violence, square off. Then you add rules to this and you get even farther from the truth.

[Brokenmace]

You are right, Pcarney.

But let's not fool ourselves. A large number of martial arts don't have sports or demonstration roots. And even today a few don't have any symbolance of demonstration or any other alternative means of expression.

And here I will refer to JKD and Kalis, since these are two arts I am most familiar with. Neither purports to be for demonstration, and with the exception of some schools of kali (usually Sport Arnis), neither goes in for "point fighting."

Many people, when thinking about martial artists, often think first of flashy belts and ring bouts, or a man breaking boards. This is silly. They are modern confections, like Wu Shu, which is actually a cultural bastardization of Shaolin Kungfu, which was mostly destroyed by the Cultural Revolution. It is for demonstration. That is why San Shou is the People's Liberation Army's primary hand2hand system.

But why bother when you have a gun or even a sword? Because Filipino farmers often had less, and so do we . . .

[Biker]

Granted, this might augment your chance of surviving on a battlefield, but sword vs. empty hands, we all know who wins. My point being that 'battlefield' martial arts, by necessity, were primarily armed combat.

Martial arts developed to even the odds on the battlefield should your sword or other weapon become lost or broken in addition to providing what is basically standardized group training with their weapons. Otherwise, training one at a time would greatly increase the preparation time to go to war.

[Brokenmace]

I'd have to dispute the assertion that anyone thought they could even the odds on a battlefield with empty hand knowledge. In a real battlefield this would be a fantasy. Empty hand training is more of a stop-gap, in order that you might regain control of a weapon. That is why most martial arts born during the popular use of edged and blunt weapons have many disarms. Karate does not number among these systems.

In Japan, Jujutsu was formed because the Samurai, in addition to being warriors and guards, were also policemen of a sort. They preferred to not draw swords on peasants, so they developed methods of restraint and submission. That is also why Japanese Jujutsu focuses more on standing grappling than does BJJ, because can you imagine rolling around on a katana? Akward and painful . . .

In Kali, however, empty hands serves a different purpose. The peasant warrior never knew what kinds of weapons would be available to him or her. Therefore it was only prudent to develop a system that took into consideration all possible modes of warfare (including guns). The samurai were almost assured that they would have a katana or yari in hand, so such a system would be almost pointless.

[rashadk]

Still believe that martial arts were for demonstrations and self improvement only

Early Bri Thai brought up that during war they would use martial arts. Now, In war they did not use specific arts do defend themselves. The army's were only trained in arts in order to enhance skills they already possessed or were being taught. Like TKD, I was reading an article saying that the army was being taught TKD. Now, does that mean that for now on were are going to see the US army use flying spin kicks and kata's in battle, No, they just learned TKD to help improve focus, conditioning, footwork, etc.. But they already had previous training on real battlefield fighting tactics.

Wrestling is another good example, now pay attention. Wrestling is not a fighting art, it is not a martial art, it is a SPORT. Pure wrestling is a sport even though you can use some wrestling skills on the street if modified. Example, your classic shoot. Now if you go for a shoot with your head landing on the side of a persons upper hip then you can be easily caught in a guillotine. So in a fight you have to make sure that when you shoot you have your hands up to block a knee and have your head land in the abdomible are of the opponents body. The reason why I brought this up was because you can use something like wrestling, karate, kung fu if modified for a real fight. But Pure wrestling, karate, kung fu ARE NOT EFFECTIVE ON THE STREET (Wrestling is an exception, of course if your purpose is to just hold your opponent down without striking him using pure wrestling skills.)

[robertlee]

Originally posted by Brokenmace
Robertlee, you bring up good points sometimes, but I'm wondering if you could use punctuation and paragraphs occasionally. My eyeballs get stretched reading your posts. No offense . . .

Anyway, no one around here really talks about street fighting unless it is assumed that running isn't a viable option. The martial arts aren't fantasy. They were designed by and for people who fight, either by choice or not.

I'd like to stop this talk of running. Running isn't martial arts, no matter what some might like us to think.

No one here trains to run away, however proper and well-advised it may be at times. If you train to run away, you are not training to fight. You are training to run away.

Brit Thai's second point is easy to solve. It is a matter of visualization training and proper breathing. This isn't a joke or fantasy. It isn't mystic. We all know that, to a great degree, the mind controls the body. If this weren't so, none of us would bother training.

You should consider every kind of assault and imagine your response. Think of being attacked from behind, while sitting, and in tight quarters, even on slippery or dangerous ground. Decide what is the simplest and most efficient way of destroying your opponent. Do this for an hour at least before bedtime and for an hour during the morning as you go through your routines.

After a workout, sit and close your eyes. Breathe in on a slow two count, hold for a slow one count, breathe out for a slow three count. The counts can be any count as long as the ratios remain the same: 2-1-3 is just simple to remember.

Now, when you are attacked breathe this way. During survival stress the body goes through changes. The most important is that the heart rate increases, as well as blood pressure. If your heart rate rises above 145 bpm, then your goose is probably cooked, especially if you've trained in Karate or TKD. At this point fine motor skills (anything requiring functioning of small muscle groups) and complex action of more than three steps are practically impossible to pull off.

You breathe to reduce heart rate, and you've already visualized what to do. Don't forget to practice what you visualize with a partner at full contact over and over.

That should be a good start.

Sorry it has been hard to read my posts . The fact on choosing to run , Shows even though one can fight you can choose not to. I teach my students to fight if they only have to . And that the bully is just a person that wants attention . That is why he likes to fight. I do not want to train a person just to fight .. But to be a better person first then fight as a need to defend there self or a another The streets like I said are not training hall.But to fight and fight well one must train toward self awareness. That means to train torwards a reality based training . One can offer only a path to be discovered. How well it is found will show in the time it is needed. The street fighter has been around a long time Many are very good. the M/A has to face that world if he is to fight that fight . You can train torwards a fight in the ring . A fight in the bar streets , is sudden . You just can use the tools as they come together for you. That is where the training be comes a reality Train hard learn well is all a person can do . To be a better person never fight on the streets just to fight. There will allways be a better fighter on the streets But he may not be the better person A good person will walk if need be fight if they must.

[Brokenmace]

I'd venture to guess, as a practical matter, that almost everyone agrees with your assessment of fighting. Walking away is better than risking your health in a fight. My point is that we all know that. Come on now, anyone who has sparred realizes how much worse the damage would be if there were no rules. This is common knowledge to those with brains. That's not my point.

Sometimes running won't work. Sometimes the attacker doesn't care if you run, and he's better at it. What then? You fight, that's what.

I'd rather take my chances fresh than get curb-stomped out of breath six blocks east. It is a matter of your situation. I'm no marathon runner. I wouldn't run to "outrun" my assailant. It would be silly. Even if I had Flojo's cardio, I'm 265 lbs. and most people are faster than me. And sometimes walking away will get you killed. If I'm going to leave, better to quit to a place of advantage where I can plan for an assault. I'm not running blindly into the streets. That's dumb.

I'm the type that lies in wait with a large bat. I don't take chances. Running is taking a big chance if you aren't fast and capable of keeping it up for long. I'm neither. So I'll fight if the guy won't leave me be.

Walking away only works if you don't get a knife in the back . . .

[robertlee]

Originally posted by Brokenmace
I'd venture to guess, as a practical matter, that almost everyone agrees with your assessment of fighting. Walking away is better than risking your health in a fight. My point is that we all know that. Come on now, anyone who has sparred realizes how much worse the damage would be if there were no rules. This is common knowledge to those with brains. That's not my point.

Sometimes running won't work. Sometimes the attacker doesn't care if you run, and he's better at it. What then? You fight, that's what.

I'd rather take my chances fresh than get curb-stomped out of breath six blocks east. It is a matter of your situation. I'm no marathon runner. I wouldn't run to "outrun" my assailant. It would be silly. Even if I had Flojo's cardio, I'm 265 lbs. and most people are faster than me. And sometimes walking away will get you killed. If I'm going to leave, better to quit to a place of advantage where I can plan for an assault. I'm not running blindly into the streets. That's dumb.

I'm the type that lies in wait with a large bat. I don't take chances. Running is taking a big chance if you aren't fast and capable of keeping it up for long. I'm neither. So I'll fight if the guy won't leave me be.

Walking away only works if you don't get a knife in the back . . .

I am not talking about runing to just run. But if the choice allows it can remain an option. Im just trying to say we do not allways need to fight . How often do you really get into a street fight ? No answer needed . But really one does what one must do You Nor I can say what will be in a real situation But it will be surely that persons option to do what they do. That is all Im trying to say . No one is the superman Training can only help prepare you for the things that may happen. What does happen is the now in the situation> Even the solider must reteat sometimes Later he may win the battle. Yes you make your points on how to survive the streets . But who will be there to guide one thru the battle but the person that must fight or walk away. If the situation dictates you must fight then fight as you must to survive the encounter . And what needs to be done hope that it can be accomplished. That is all you can do. Laern from it go on.One has lived another day You could test your skills daily on the streets And become very good at what works for you There will allways be a better fighter. The way one learns is there truth Bruce to quote him said your art is not my art That meant even as one learns jkd one is merly learning it his way as no to people are the same nor react the same how to use skills is the way of no way My intent is not to offend nor upset but its wise to fight if you must and walk if you can No one should fear the streets just respect them. Your point is taken I respect it and think you are on the right track We just say a diffrent aproach to the problem. Both may be right niether may be wrong

[crazyjoe380]

Jesus..

i wanna get into this convo but you guys write novels.. dont wanna read all that..

peace..

[robertlee]

Originally posted by crazyjoe380
Jesus..

i wanna get into this convo but you guys write novels.. dont wanna read all that..

peace..

your probably right time to end this story and get back to point at hand

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Just try grappling with a guy with a hidden knife.


Actually I do this quite a bit. (Well a training knife) It's a great way to learn the realities of this type of prediciment.

Grappling can be very "streetwise" if you train for it....

Ryu