The Street Figher Syndrome.

[Einherjar]

Nowadays that violence is a big topic, it would be interesting to take a closer look to one of the most feared characters out there: the seasoned street fighter (and I don't mean the average drunken with an attitude, I'm talking about serious shit). What makes him so hard to beat?

After more than twenty-five years practicing martial arts and having had more than my share of real violence (rough neighbourhood and bouncing for a while, you know...), now I have some conclusions.

1. He has LOTS of natural killer instinct. Most people lack of it and need some time of adjusting and development.

2. He has nothing to lose (he has probably been in jail many times before so he is not really worried about that anymore), so he will use ANYTHING to stop you from doing him harm. That means that there are no rules and EVERYTHING is allowed (no matter how nasty or dangerous is: that includes stabbings, using guns, baseball bats, mass stompings...). Most people have perfectly normal lives (a house, a car, children...) and don't want to risk any of it, so they generally think twice before killing or maiming an opponent.

3. He has fought MANY times before, so he REALLY KNOWS what moves work and which ones don't. Most people think that they know how to handle an agression (until reality appears and prove them sadly mistaken). This is specially true for martial artists, who tend to live in La-La-Land (having attended a martial art class during 10 years doesn't mean shit when in front of a real fighter).

4. He knows what it's like to be brutally beaten (nobody wins forever), he accepts pain and doesn't care about blood spilled. Most people tend to think that violence is like a John Woo movie: cool, smooth, slow motion movements and a perfect choreography. So, when facing someone who is really dangerous the don't know how to react and they think a punch in the face or a kick in the balls will suffice.

5. He has walked the walk many times and has survived to talk about it. Most people's last "serious" fight was during secondary school, so they tend to forget about ambushes, outnumbering assaults, armed opponents, revenge seekings...

My two cents on the subject.

PS. Excuse my grammar and any other mistake, my native language is not English (but I'm trying to improve).

[sub wrestler]

Great post!

[AKF]

Einherjar,

You are bang on accurate!

I was a bouncer for over 10 years and saw/was involved in many fights. Guys on this fourm like Bri Thai who bring into question the validiy of martial arts training when it comes to street fighting are right. Unfortunately, SO MANY martial artists believe that the training they do in an average dojo is going to help them in a street attack... and they are dead wrong.

For all of the reasons you mentioned, traditional martial arts are in NO WAY useful in REAL LIFE situations. Anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't been in a real fight perhaps ever. Remember, I am not talking about two drunk guys fighting over who one the big game -- I'm talking about street fighters. The kind of guys that Einherjar is talking about.

Great post, Einherjar.

[Brokenmace]

I don't entirely disagree. But I would point out that most martial arts didn't come out of thin air (with the possible exceptions of Karate, TKD, and Wu Shu).

Either they were designed for another era in which the value of a combat system was tested in a different cultural and material environment (i.e. no guns, differing moral codes, battlefields), or they were designed for something completely different, as in the case of Wu Shu, which I'm not entirely sure deserves the term "martial art" applied to it. It wasn't designed for combat, but for the Chinese cultural revolution. TKD is the result of the Japanese culture assassination of Korea before WWII, and Karate is little more than an attempt at mass discipline.

However, I would remind all posters that at some point in history, most martial arts actually worked for a significant percentage of their practitioners. Certain of them are still very close to their combative roots, removed only by one or two generations, sometimes less (this is the case in the Phillipines, some parts of Indonesia, and SE Asia, and certain parts of Africa).

Others were never designed for modern urban combat, like Iaido, but are still valid as far as they go.

The only way one learns to fight in the street is to fight in the street. It is the difference between a soldier and a combat veteran.

But certain forms of preperation can and do make a difference. It's not all hogwash. Some training regimes actually work. The degree to which they work is largely based on three things: personal determination (linked intimately with the development of "killer instinct"), scenario sparring (full contact w/ proper breathing), and simplification.

This is not a specific program, just elements I believe are present in most effective regimes. I've made these work. I've seen them work. I'm no guru, but I am still alive.

[Einherjar]

In my time, I have seen (suffered and, sometimes, provoked) more violence than I would like to admit. So I guess I have learned a thing or two about real fighting (the hard way, mostly
)and its rough players.

Don't get me wrong, people, I'm not stating that martial arts are completely useless under stress conditions. If such a thought were crossing my mind, it would be kinda stupid for me to keep practicing "the arts".

If trained correctly, a martial artist can be as dangerous as the most lethal street fighter out there. But there's still a little problem: most people that attends martial arts classes lack the spirit and the guts to turn their cardio-kata-semicontact training into something more real and useful when the shit hits the fan.

Perhaps the best and most ferocious fighters I have had the pleasure to see in action, were martial artists... with much, much, much more that their share of streetfighting experience. Having some martial arts background can help you lots to improve your survival chances in a real confrontation.

A street fighter knows what works. A martial arts practicioner think that he knows what works. A true martial artist (someone who knows enough about violence to keep away from it... unless there is no other option, in which case he shall prevail) knows what works and WHY it works (and that is what makes him so dangerous).

When you step into a training hall for the first time, everything is scaring, people can punch and kick you and you don't even realize where that fist came from. The advanced students seem like demigods of war: so fast, so strong, so cool...

Eventually, you improve and start to look impressive yourself, hitting here and there without much effort, perhaps even defeating those person before known as demigods. That's what I'd call a good confidence builder.

But what most people tend to forget is that streetfighting is a whole different game and, no matter how skilled you are in the training hall, unless you train for reality, you are going to learn the true meaning of the word "pain".

There are no cool-looking techniques in streetfighting, just raw power, clumsy moves and LOTS of agressiveness. Nobody cares about form, posture or correct body alignment. It would be nice that things worked like that but, sadly, in a real fighting situation, there's no time to waste so, either you go for it or your head will be served on a plate.

Perhaps a sudden, wild, open overhand is not the most effective punching technique, but it has been proven under combat conditions and, guess what? It works like a charm most of the time. Of course, a good hook with proper hip twist can be more lethal but, how many times have you seen this punch correctly performed during a boxing match? Just think about it for a minute: if in a controlled environment like a sports match is so damn difficult to perform techniques the way they are supposed to be, what makes you think that you are going to do it better under worse conditions?

Train hard and train for reality and you will be more prepared for a street fight.

[AKF]

'cardio-kata-semicontact training' -- I like that!

The argument used a lot when talking to martial artists regarding the 'arts' being useful/not useful in real life situations, always focuses on the fact that all arts have there history based in war time situations and for life and death combat (i.e. Brokenmace thoughts).

While I don't disagree, I will say that those days are over. MANY modern martial arts, no matter what there devastating routes were, are taught under fluffy circumstances by 'master's' who themselves have never experienced real life combat. To me, that makes the discussion about an arts routes useless.

In reading my first post, I feel as though I was a touch unfair. Not ALL martial arts or martial artists are pansies who just 'think' they are prepared. I officially retract that statement!

[Sean J]

I totally aggree wit you. What I might want to ad is that there are definitely structures and techniques in most MAs generally practiced. But the the graduation curriculum does not lead you where it is any good for fighting.

I have tought practial self defence for quite a few years. A lot of it was actually based on Karate. But the emphasis was on totally different parts of the system than what I had learned as a beginner in Karate-Dojos.

(Finally, what I felt was Karate had very little to do with what the dojos taught - and I suddenly found myself training NCGF and JKD. Not by choice - just a natural consequence)

[Einherjar]

Thank you all for your warm welcome to the forum. I'll try to make myself an active and useful member of this community (if you don't mind, that's it).

[Corpsicle]

ok
i agree as well
but my question is are there martial arts out there that can help stop these sort of situations?
and how does a persom who has froze in past altercations,has low self esteem, or never been in a real fight, gain that mental edge to do the damage that needs to be done?
i may be an idiot or a fool for believing this but i really feel my training in BJJ and MT will come in handy if needed

[Corpsicle]

then again are we talking about combat martial arts like BJJ,MT ,or Kali
or are we discussing sport stuff like TKD?

[Einherjar]

but my question is are there martial arts out there that can help stop these sort of situations?
and how does a persom who has froze in past altercations,has low self esteem, or never been in a real fight, gain that mental edge to do the damage that needs to be done?
i may be an idiot or a fool for believing this but i really feel my training in BJJ and MT will come in handy if needed

You are no fool, my friend (you make a lot of sense, indeed). In my humble opinion, it all depends on the individual and the way you train.

Let me put it this way:whatever it takes to become a serious player, Tyson has it. So it doesn't really matter whether he knows how to box or not, it's him who is dangerous; boxing just makes him even more dangerous.

I have trained Karate for 10 years and, while it helped my fitness, coordination and balance a lot, it also gave me a false sense of superiority. Doing katas all, practicing hikite and very low stances were ruining my chances of surviving a real confrontation.

I slowly developed a sort of hate for Karate, without realizing that it wasn't Karate's fault but my Karate instructor's. Karate (or Muai Thai, or BJJ or whatever martial art), if trained properly, can be lethal.

Nobody could deny that Mas Oyama was perfectly capable of defending himself. And he was a Karate man. So, Karate IS useful for self defense purposes. But it takes a lot of sweat, pain and guts (just like any other realistic training) to become proficient at it while keeping an eye on the streetfighting side.

While I was practicing Muai Thai (some years ago), most of my classmates were the average Joe who wanted to be in shape and look impressive in front of their ladies. And there were the mad ones (me and a few others) who wanted to compete and always wanted to go farther.

It goes without saying that most of those people quit within a couple of years and started to attend Cardioboxing and TaeBo classes. It takes some guts to stand Thai Boxing training but, equally, it used to take some guts to stand any kind of martial arts fifty years ago.

Kyokushinkai practicioners learn the same techniques that are taught in Shotokan, ShitoRyu and WadoRyu. Then, how come Kiokus are, by far, the most respected karatekas? That's because of their rigurous training regime and the way their competitions have evolved.

When you are facing an opponent who is willing to beat you to a bloody pulp, and who is going to use real contact to make his dreams come true, one tend to forget low stances, hikite and cool-looking techniques and stick to what it looks safer: a close resemble of a boxer's guard and a few punches and low kicks.

Since we all have the same number of arms and legs, and we all can only move them in one direction, the possibilities that a move will work are quite a few. So, whichever realistic martial art you choose is going to look alike all the others.

Anything that it has been trained correctly is going to work fine. Even if we are talking about the good old haymaker.

[Guest]

Welcome to the forum Einherjar, even if you did start a thread just like my "Why Martial Artists can't fight" one!

You make alot of sense to me.

[Einherjar]

Welcome to the forum Einherjar, even if you did start a thread just like my "Why Martial Artists can't fight" one!

Sorry about that, Bri Thai. I just thought it would be kind of rude to interrupt like that in a thread I didn't start. Hope you didn't mind I started one myself.

PS. I agree with you in almost anything you write, man. I can see you know what you are talking about. I like that, I respect that.

[Brokenmace]

Welcome to the forum, Einherjar. The more the merrier.

One way in which proper martial training can come in handy is in the concept of ranges. I've observed that most street fighters know three ways of attack: ballistic (guns, bottles, chairs), boxing, and wrestling. If you train to smoothly flow from one range to another, you can catch an assailant in an unfamiliar range, such as standing grappling, and really pound on him! I've seen this happen at least once.

If you get passed there fists, most street fighters I've seen will either try and tackle you or back off to boxing again. If you catch them on the transition and lay the smackdown, I would think things tend to go well for you.

Any thoughts?

BTW, I'm talking about folks that ARE NOT on PCP.

[Einherjar]

Ranges and balance are, in my opinion, the most important issues in a fight.

It doesn't matter how skilled you are, without proper balance you can't hit with significant power. And, what about ranges? You can't kick in grappling range, you can't wrestle in kicking range, so whoever controls range during a fight usually end up as a victor.

Being able to change ranges constantly so your opponent is never comfortable is, perhaps, one of the most effective self defense techniques available.

Easier said than done, though...