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  • #76
    I think the answer to your question is that they were asked to plan a short term training plan with very little follow on training in the students units. I suppose if I thought that graduation from the course I was teaching would be the last time my students ever trained, I would have adopted a similar training plan, with equally poor results.

    Fortunately that is not what we had in mind. Our training is geared toward building units with almost self-supporting continuous training in units.

    There are inherent weaknesses in the institutional training plan that militaries like to adopt when it comes to combatives training. A good example of this was the Marine Corps experience with the LINE system. They had a instructor training course that was eight or ten weeks long and upon graduation you were a “Close Combat Instructor” or something like it. The problem with that sort of plan is that Combatives and the teaching of combatives takes longer eight or ten weeks to become “expert” at. Imagine if you took you eight year old to the local martial arts school and you found out that the instructors entire qualification to run the school was an eight or ten week course that he attended six years earlier.

    Our plan is to create continuing training and a cadre of experienced instructors throughout the Army. We do that by having many levels of instructor training and corresponding instructor positions throughout the Army. For example:

    The first course a student goes through is the level one course. It is five days long and is geared around someone who will be introducing new students to the basics of the system. This course is short, but very physical and at the end of it the students are only expected to know the “what” and “how” of a limited set of techniques.

    These students go out into the Army and teach at that level for at least several months and then come back for the level two course. Whereas students of the first course were only expected to know what and how, students of the second course, which is of slightly longer duration, are taught the why of the level one techniques. This is accomplished by showing them the next level of technique. So that at the end of level two they know that if a level one student puts his hand hear rather than where he was taught, this or that could happen. It is designed around putting supervisory instructors in the force who will insure that level one training is being done correctly and to standards. An example would be in a basic training unit, various level one graduates would do the instruction but there would be a level two graduate who was responsible for the training.

    After filling this role for a while the student is then eligible for the level three course. This course is of a longer duration, but realizing the limitations of institutional training is geared toward road mapping the student’s future growth and teaching the training methodologies of the first two courses. For example, level two students are taught a series of takedowns. In the level three course they are shown the relationship of these takedowns in a chain and taught the principle that these techniques actually illustrate. They are then taught how they can expand on that training. They are also taught how to structure successful unit training programs and how to conduct scenario driven training so that combatives becomes integrated with the all of the other training conducted by the unit.

    Of course there is a fourth level course, which is mostly about the pedagogy of the other courses, scenario based training, creating successful unit programs etc.

    The basic idea is to rope students in for the long hall. By the time someone has completed level four they will have only a limited amount of institutional training, but they will have actually been training and teaching for years.

    There are many professional civilian CQC instructors, some good, some excellent, some not so good. Professional sport fighters are all civilians. Civilians and police officers are called on to use their hand to hand combat skills much more often than most soldiers.
    Where do these civilian “experts” come from, mostly from other arts that have little to do with CQC. I could cite examples if you wish, but almost any civilian expert you can name’s training history is in something other than CQC. What spark of inspiration makes a San Soo expert an expert in CQC, or a wrestler, or a Judoka, or a Muay Thai fighter? As for the experience of police officers, it is more constructive to talk about their level of training, which is almost universally low. To argue the other end is like arguing that the average SWAT team knows more about CQB than Delta because they do it more. It is true that they do it more, but they also have very little time to be introspective or to actually get themselves to the next level by training. This is not to belittle the experience and expertise that many of these men have. There are several who combine their experiences as a police officer with the training they have received from various non-CQC martial arts in very innovative and insightful ways. They are in fact our primary resource. At the present time my main job is to pull in the lessons that these men have to teach and then create the combatives culture in the Army that at least has the potential to surpass them.

    Matt Larsen
    Last edited by M Larsen; 05-01-2003, 08:09 AM.

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    • #77
      That is extremely impressive. I am not attempting to diminish his considerable accomplishments in any way, but I wonder who he has fought. I run into boxers who have been 'world kickboxing champions' every now and then, yet I know they have not fought in Thailand or someone near the K-1 calibur. The fact that he is so successful does speak well for your training, but keep in mind that these are all closely related grappling arts (training that the Army specializes in). It doesn't have anything to do with battlefield prowess--the subject at hand.
      I meant to say earlier that you are undoubtedly right about SPC Stelly but think about the fact that he is only twenty years old and has been in the Army for just under three years. Compare his resume to those civilian “CQC experts” that we spoke of earlier and imagine were he could be by the time he is a forty year old Sergeant Major.

      As for his “battlefield prowess” and non-grappling arts that you mentioned, he is 3-0 in amature boxing and 1-0 in amature kickboxing. I just didn’t mention those because he hasn’t yet won any accolades. He has also done a tour in Afghanistan including a combat jump. In fact there are guys running around the Ranger Regt. right now with four combat jumps and combat experience in four theaters. One of my instructors who was still in the Ranger Regt. at the time called me when he got back from their first trip over to Afghanistan to make excuses why he wouldn’t be in to train for a couple of weeks and said “I won’t be able to come in for a while because I was wounded after my third combat jump.” I only have one. You only have to compare all of that to any supposed “expert” now or in the past to know that the Army at least should produce the true experts. Although admittedly until now they have dropped the ball.

      Matt Larsen

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      • #78
        matt larsen

        hi, well i starte this thread to see if anyone knew where i could get a deesent instructor training in military combatives. maybe you know the answer?

        i am going into a position as a h2h combat instructor in the norwegian navy in desember. i have expiriense from bjj,thai boxing, kickboxing, and kempo.

        but i am looking for the good stuff, the stuff that a soldier needs.

        do you know where i can get this kind of instructor course? anywhere in the world.

        regards

        vidar

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        • #79
          Send me a private E-mail. combatives@benning.army.mil

          Matt Larsen

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          • #80
            You only have to compare all of that to any supposed “expert” now or in the past to know that the Army at least should produce the true experts. Although admittedly until now they have dropped the ball.
            The experts I refer to do not necessarily have the experience of an Army Ranger (some do), but they have a different kind of experience. Some are longtime bouncers, cops, bodyguards, etc. and they know their stuff. They don't claim to teach you how to make it through a combat jump, just how to go through someone who wants to stop you in the most economical, safe, and effective way possible.

            If the Army decides to spend the time and resources to train and then produce competent CQC instructors, they will undoubtedly accomplish it. I haven't been at all impressed with their stuff in the past, but the current program is obviously a step in the right direction.

            As far as I'm concerned, the top instructors out there today are Sammy Franco, Richard Dimitri, and Kelly McCann. There are other good ones, but these guys sit at the top of my list. Hopefully the Army will start to produce guys of their level in the future.

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            • #81
              Do you actually train with any of them?

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              • #82
                Do you actually train with any of them?
                Yes, I do. Wouldn't recommend someone on reputation or hearsay alone. I train with Franco on a very regular basis, and I have worked with people trained by McCann. I prefer the former, but McCann's people were very good as well (though they tend to lean towards the basic strike--what you're trying to get away from). Dimitri is a close friend of Franco, and is an excellent instructor in his own right. I have not personally trained with him, but I have corresponded with him on a few occasions. Franco and other people whose opinions I trust that have trained with Dimitri speak very well of his work. I have a feeling that you would identify more with Dimitri and Franco than McCann, as they are the top RBSD guys around, and focus on turning out complete fighters capable of operating in a wide variety of situations and scenarios.

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                • #83
                  I have to be honest I have never actually heard of either Sammy Franco or Richard Dimitri, and I have only heard of Kelly McCann from CNN. I am sure they are excellent teachers.

                  I did a little research on them, very little, and what little information McCann is willing to give about himself leads you to believe that he learned what he knows While he was in the Marine Corps.

                  I also saw quite a bit of reference to scientific methods and research on Franco and Dimitri’s web sites. I was wondering if they had ever published their research methods, the experiments they had run etc. I noticed they had published quite a bit on their fighting methods and theories. My general experience is that many martial art teachers talk allot about using scientific methods but never actual hold themselves and their research to any scientific standards. I don’t mean to cast doubt about Dimitri or Franco, or what they do, as I said I don’t known them. I am sure they are very good teachers or you wouldn’t be recommending them.

                  This is actually one of the long-term goals of the Combatives School. We will be a catalyst and a test bed for actual scientific research into training and fighting methods. As an example, right now we are helping with a study on the psychological effects of training in different types of skills. The West Point Department of Physical Education is conducting before and after psychological testing with various types of combatives training and different training methods to find out which types are the most effective in terms of aggressiveness, self confidence etc. The results will of course be published in a scientific journal and open to pear review, in other words actual scientific research.

                  Matt Larsen

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                  • #84
                    Matt,
                    How much is the Army using members of the Special Forces to develop the new material?

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                    • #85
                      Matt,
                      Sorry it's taken me so long to respond.

                      I did a little research on them, very little, and what little information McCann is willing to give about himself leads you to believe that he learned what he knows While he was in the Marine Corps.
                      That's the jist I got. I don't know much about McCann himself other than that he has a history with the Marines and that he is a well respected expert on close combat and terrorism. My recommendation came from my experience training with some of his people.

                      I also saw quite a bit of reference to scientific methods and research on Franco and Dimitri’s web sites. I was wondering if they had ever published their research methods, the experiments they had run etc. I noticed they had published quite a bit on their fighting methods and theories.
                      I don't know about online articles or publishings. As far as the scientific aspects go, there are many. Their systems are based off of personal experience in training and in 'real world' confrontations. Can I prove this unequivocally? No. I can say that everything they have to say matches up with what I have experienced, as well as what people who have far, far more 'real' experience than I do have seen. They are quite popular with a lot of police and military types. Other than knowing firsthand what works and what does not, I believe that the 'scientific' aspects go in a different direction than your research. Whereas yours is focused more on the methods that are most successful at developing skill, aggression, and other successful attributes for soldiers, theirs is geared towards self-defense. Psychology, understanding of human behavior, deceptive histrionics (basically acting), pre-violent cues, etc. Physics rather than mysticism is the focus, as it is the focus for every functional system of combat. Anatomy plays a big role--what does the job fast on almost everyone and why. No dim mak/kyusho nonsense. Much pressure testing (scenario work) goes on for the students, so as to find what works for the individual and for certain types of people against other types (passive v aggressive, big v small). A considerable amount of time is devoted to developing the mindset necessary for success in close combat.

                      My general experience is that many martial art teachers talk allot about using scientific methods but never actual hold themselves and their research to any scientific standards.
                      I also find that this is the case for the vast majority of 'scientific' or 'street wise' instructors. I don't see this as the case here, as their research into a number of disciplines related to h2hc and self-defense matches my own. I think you might be impressed with the 'shredder' from Senshido. I doubt if Mr. Dimitri held himself to scientific standards when he developed it (it's not a technique, but a principle), but it flat works. Based on simple reaction dynamics and flinch response. Interesting.

                      I am sure they are very good teachers or you wouldn’t be recommending them.
                      I stand by my recommendations.

                      This is actually one of the long-term goals of the Combatives School. We will be a catalyst and a test bed for actual scientific research into training and fighting methods. As an example, right now we are helping with a study on the psychological effects of training in different types of skills. The West Point Department of Physical Education is conducting before and after psychological testing with various types of combatives training and different training methods to find out which types are the most effective in terms of aggressiveness, self confidence etc. The results will of course be published in a scientific journal and open to pear review, in other words actual scientific research.
                      I honestly look forward to hearing about this one. It's of particular interest, and has a lot of pertinence to combat in general, not just battlefield. Do you know the venue in which it will be published?

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                      • #86
                        Ryanhall originally posted...As far as I'm concerned, the top instructors out there today are Sammy Franco, Richard Dimitri, and Kelly McCann.




                        Where does Paul Vunak fit in in your opinion?

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Aaron04
                          Ryanhall originally posted...As far as I'm concerned, the top instructors out there today are Sammy Franco, Richard Dimitri, and Kelly McCann.




                          Where does Paul Vunak fit in in your opinion?

                          ya and where is Vladimir Vasiliev I WANT TO KNOW!!!he's an ex-spetsnaz, ex- spets trainer ..... but what would he know ........i'll be quiet now

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                          • #88
                            Or Tom Carter and Jim West?....

                            And does being in SF disqualify someone from being an expert in combat?

                            I'll be quiet now too.

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                            • #89
                              Are you ladies finished (no offense meant to any females on the board) whining? I don't care how special your forces are or what you can do. Self-defense goes a lot deeper than fighting.

                              I like Vunak. I think that others have moved beyond him, but he's still very solid (I don't like the destructions he does--or triest to do--but I would train with him if I ever got the chance). So is Geoff Thompson. I'm not much of a fan of Tony Blauer, but his stuff isn't bad (SPEAR has major flaws, though it has saved lives and many LEOs stand by it).

                              As for Vlad, I've never met him, met his people, or seen what he can do. I'm sure that he's an excellent practitioner and teacher(that's what I've heard), but I would not list him as a top resource for self-defense. That's my personal opinion, and nothing more. Don't get your panties up in a twist over it


                              I've never even heard of those other two guys.

                              --spelling

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                              • #90
                                I've never even heard of those other two guys.
                                Tom Carter Bio Though Toms a bit more of a shooter than h2h.

                                West has some material out too.

                                After training with a couple of SF I've become skepticle about others that say they're teaching combat oriented systems, especially when they have very limited time in the field themselves.

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