how do you tell someone that their style is crap without hurting their feelings?

[Crouchtig]

that really doesnt make sense

martial arts often reflect the people who created them

japanese are very concerned with small detail: bonzai trees, tea ceremony, origami. perhaps shotokans rules are an expression of this love of small detail

[Toudiyama]

the way Shotokan looks now, it's more a reflection of the son of Funakoshi Gichin
If you want to know how his karate might have looked, you should examine styles like Wado and Shindo Jinen Ryu, both it's founders studied with Gichin before the name Shotokan was registered
Much higher up stances, more focus on speed than on power and almost a scientific aproach to things

Following info shows influences from other arts on these 2 styles

Konishi founder of the Shindo Jinen ryu was a Kendo master who totally against customs allowed Funakoshi and Ohtsuka to teach Ryu kyu Okinawa Kempo Karate jjitsu there and like Ohtsuka became a top student of Funakoshi
Otsuka already was a master of Shindo Yoshin ryu ju jitsu before he started doing karate, he amazed funakoshi with his striking and kicking abilities, funakoshi couldn't believe he had not done karate before

Also these two masters studied with other okinawan masters Like Choki Motobu annd it was them who started experiment with kumite forms (amonst which free sparring)because on Okinawa there were still some prearanged forms and because this is what they knew to work in kendo and ju jitsu

Looks like I'm giving historylessons but I want to show that somewhere the Karate of Funakoshi was drasticaly changed.
Shotokan is also the most widespread style of karate on this globe AND that is reponsible for the general view of karate

But for the five year old it might be very good, it is very disciplined and very well structured and promotes coorporation through teamkata practice so to again come back ontopic leave it for now, only if they claim it is good for selfdefence then point them to the things contradictionary to that
Maybe the child has ADHD if the teacher can handle that then I would say Shotokan actually has someting very worthwile to offer

I think the wrestling of the WWE is great, why, because it fits its purpose perfectly entertainment
I think MMA is perfect as ringsports
and trad MA as a thing to do in your sparetime, if you do not want/need to be competetive


blah blah blah I'm dragging on, sorry for that

[Crouchtig]

very interesting

well i agreed with everything you said there

i cant keep an opinion for more than a few days without completely switching to the other end of the discussion

WWE... when i was about 12 i had a friend who still thought it was real. lol

how can they do something so obviously fake and still end up with horrific injuries? (there have even been deaths)

trouble is they keep having to get more and more EXTREME to keep people watching

oh my god the rock just slamed triple HHH through seven flaming acid covered tables off a house into the jaws of a shark! now hes been run over by a truck!

they might be safer doing real fighting

[Toudiyama]

It's better entertainment than a Rocky movie, at least at the WWE you're not shure who will win
I'm always downing this stuff, darn have forgotten to DL Wrestelmania .. a well will start that tonight

Love the way how McMahon involves himself and his family in the act (backstabbing Hulk Hogan)

Love the Dudleyboys with their table matches

[CHOKE UK]

How do you tell a karateka that karate is inadequate?

Well that's like saying that, all the hard work and dedication that they have gone through has been a waste of time ?

Who wouldn't be offended ?
I can understand that.

But what I cant understand is that they are so busy "getting-offended" that they fail to look into it and truely test the effectiveness of their so-called-art.

They merely test it against other karateka,
in other words, it proves only , who's least worse !

They feel they have gone past the point of no-return,
and so blindly "defend-Karate",
when in fact, they can barely defend themselves.

The arguements they come out with defy logic,
re; kata etc,
Their claims are as far fetched as those of a certain "information minister" in the news recently !!!!!!!!!!

There are those of us who many years ago were wise enough and brave enough to admit that what we had been learning was a waste of time, and went onto better things.
And there are those who are stuck in the "KARATE-CYCLE" !
So say to karate "on-yer-bike", and you will never look back.

LOOK at the set up of karate,
the belt-system, what ever happened to improving through "merit".
Oh no, you have to have the right amount of lessons before you get your next belt.
WHY ?
£££££££££££££££ or in the states $$$$$$$$$$$$
Thats why.
Money is the root of all evil...AND KARATE !!!!!

So you choose,
"BUY" a collection of useless but colourfull-belts!
Or learn real "self-defence".

£££££££££££££££££££/$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The instructors are laughing all the way to the dojo !

[Crouchtig]

well those are good arguments

toudiyama help im being convinced to hate karate again!

your right in that many belt systems are there for the sole purpose of making money

plus it gives the instructors more power

i did TKD for a year

i realised i wasnt getting anything out of it. everything i learned there was useless (apart from flashy kicks that look good)

so i quit. now im happy doing thai boxing

[Toudiyama]

come on 1 pound or a dollar fifty for a belt exam is trying to make money? less then 30 pounds 45 dollar training free for 3 months 2x a week 2 hours per training
Your entrance fee for tournaments payed minus 1 pound which you pay yourself
And you think Karatepeople are in it for the money?

Even if the beltsystem is flawed(spelling?)what it does is give people a way to see that they improve

The fact that people misuse the system doesn't mean that it is crap but that the people are(misusers)

I do not believe that anyone on this forum can say he or she knows even 10 % of the karate styles, let alone the different schools within one style, so saying anything about why karate is crap or inefficient and then to come with the belt system and the misuse of it and the fact that you can't use it in real life (disagree out of experience) to me is BS because Karate is not one style as is Judo or thaiboxing

But maybe you never see someone use karate on the street, is that it?

the fact that the son of a rich oilfamily can buy a degree doesn't make the system of universitydegrees any less does it?

PS My Dad a 25 yyear long Judo teacher always said that Karate was better self defence tah either judo or ju jitsu( which he also did) (had to tease Choke )

[Crouchtig]

shotokan is very popular which is unfortunate as it is a style with many flaws this leads people (like CHOKE or once even myself) to dislike all karate

toudiyama has a point, there are many styles of karate all of which are different

they should be looked at individualy not under the collective name of "karate"

karate, like TKD is often seen in its mcdojo form

besides self defence isn't the only reason to take up MA

my unnessecery and irration hatred of karate is no more!

i am now a more tolerant and open minded person

[Toudiyama]

Which is the only thing I try to accomplish(open mind)

I for one never strated any MA for selfdefence, not judo nor karate or jujitsu.. none of them

My best advice against an unarmed oponent much bigger: suprise and run, not winning but survival is most important in selfdefence and that is what some seem to forget

of course karateschools teach some selfdefence techniques, but we always said that if you want to defend yourself, there are quicker ways , like pepperspray

McDojo MA are called karate like in a lot of places TKD is called karate, it often shouldn't even hold the name

Oh in my country only one org should represent karate and black belt testing is done centralized
Org. is run technicaly by volunteers( they are karate proffesionals but only get travel money)highranking volunteers but volunteers on top of that for the money you pay for an exam you can fail 2x and still attend a 3rd exam without paying again
So Karate in my country isn't a moneymaker, in places like Amsterdam it is easier to make money of thai/kickboxing then on anything traditional

[CHOKE UK]

.............
I am fully aware of the many styles of karate.

And no-doubt, some have developed modern and realistic improvements.

Thats fine, and they are not the one's i am referring to.

But as i mentioned, I refer to the one's that, concentrate on inadequate, inferior, impractical tecniques and rubbish, that is simply a waste of time and MONEY.
And all the kata, that is simply there for DISPLAY- purposes, but has been misconstrued.
Also the competition points system of karate, is so ill-thought out ,
that it encourages this ONE-BLOW approach
Only a fool would fight like this in real life, but in a real fight you will fight how you have been trained,
"One -BLOW, and if that dont work then i'll do my kata on them"!

No one seems able to explain, why karate has so many inefficient/impractical moves.
If you dont believe me ,
do what I did ,many,many years ago,
After thinking I was very effectivemany at karate,
I decided to put it to the test, and went down to a thai-boxing gym and got in the ring.
And tried to do karate, (well it had worked perfectly against my fellow karateka, and I'd done well in competitions)
BUt alas, Trust me, it's amazing how quickly you can abandon years of karate tecnique, when you are facing, EVEN A MODERATE thai-boxer.
IF ANYONE DOES NOT BELIEVE ME, try it !

Then The instructor said to me,"sorry about that, but I do that to all the karate people, because they wont listen if you tell them karate's ineffective, so I get one of my average thai boxers, to show them, sometimes i even use a beginner, normally it only takes ONE ROUND FOR THEM TO CHANGE THEIR VIEW"!

Then he went on to say that, thats how he realised that he had worked for years to get a 3rd dan and it was all in vain.

I saw many karate people go through the same, sometimes blackbelts of various dans and not one of them could handle it.
Some converted on the spot, but most went away and never came back, and probably didnt even confide this debacle to their closest friend.

Like I say, generally karate is ok, unless you want to use it for self-defence !

And there are people who will argue because they know no better.


TOUDIYAMA, I dont know what classes you have been to but i have never seen classes or competitions at anywhere near that price.

But even if that were the case, it's abit like saying,
"well I am only being "conned" out of few pounds per lesson"

A con is a con.

There are exceptions to the rule but generally,
this is a true reflection.

I bet a "certain foreign information" minister, in the news recently, would say, "Karate is the greatest" !

[Kingston]

this reminds me of a conversation i had with a friend once about karate.

he said something to the affect of:

"the good thing about karate is you learn how to drop the guy in one hit. You go so fast and so hard its imposible to block it"

he was talking about what one of his friends had told him, his friend was a 2nd degree black belt. "he could blow out a canddle by punching right beside it" kind of stuff.

lol he's a funny guy, he also said "the best thing to do if your being attacked by allot of people is to pull of high flying, flashy stuff. you do a realy cool looking move to one guy and all the rest will be afraid so they wont be as willing to attack you"

another good one.

friend:"Aikido is would be great against alot of people as well, nobody would be able to hit you, if the guy swings at you, you just re-direct his punch and through him away"

me: "well what if someone hits you from behind when your throwing the guy"

friend: " no he wont be able to because your spinning while you throw the guy. throw one guy, then the next one comes along then you just throw him, no one will be able to hit you"

lol i should talk to this guy more often, i need a good laugh.

hes the type of guy who watches that Ultimate 10 martial arts show on TLC, and accualy thinks those rankings are valid to real life. Therefore KARATE is the second MOST ULTIMATE MA IN THE WORLD! lol!

[Toudiyama]

I have been teaching at that club, don't forget I live in the netherlands we are cheapscates more than 50 - 60 euros would be the most modern school 6 days a week training... in Amsterdam where prices are higher because of the high rents and building prices

It is a club, the club where my dad used to teach judo, it doesn't need to maake a profit but does have around 600 members technique was very important and the teachers we had were always very open for other views
And once again selfdefence should never be the reason for starting there (it's a pleasant byproduct) and that was always made clear, but also that the fact that one can spar on wuko rules and win doesn't mean shit in the streets

Problem with McDojo schools is that is is largely an american phenomena
Putting a karateka in the ring having to fight a thaiboxer on thaiboxing rules is like asking a soccerplayer to play an american footbal game
When you still did karate what would the targets be for you in real life eyes, throat, neck, solar plexus and genitals the most obvious, which did you strike during the match and which were you allowed to strike with your bare hands?Please remember I did do thaiboxing and savate too so it isn't blind thrust in karate talking here
A student of mine, big guy 2 meters, sometimes went to train at a kickboxing/thaiboxing school(the best in the area), he didn't have any problems at all, actually only reason for training there was that it was a more physicaly demanding training (Wado gets less demanding the better you get at it)
What style did you do?

[CHOKE UK]

Kingston, you are a man who has seen the light !

Yes,
Yes,
and yes, you are right,
these people live in a world of fantasy.
Their attitude seems to be
"well I know these moves work, cos I've seen the proof, on Karate-kid one, two and three" !!!!!
what more do you need !

karate, wax-on and push-off !

[Toudiyama]

Originally posted by Kingston
this reminds me of a conversation i had with a friend once about karate.

he said something to the affect of:

"the good thing about karate is you learn how to drop the guy in one hit. You go so fast and so hard its imposible to block it"

he was talking about what one of his friends had told him, his friend was a 2nd degree black belt. "he could blow out a canddle by punching right beside it" kind of stuff.

lol he's a funny guy, he also said "the best thing to do if your being attacked by allot of people is to pull of high flying, flashy stuff. you do a realy cool looking move to one guy and all the rest will be afraid so they wont be as willing to attack you"

another good one.

friend:"Aikido is would be great against alot of people as well, nobody would be able to hit you, if the guy swings at you, you just re-direct his punch and through him away"

me: "well what if someone hits you from behind when your throwing the guy"

friend: " no he wont be able to because your spinning while you throw the guy. throw one guy, then the next one comes along then you just throw him, no one will be able to hit you"

lol i should talk to this guy more often, i need a good laugh.

hes the type of guy who watches that Ultimate 10 martial arts show on TLC, and accualy thinks those rankings are valid to real life. Therefore KARATE is the second MOST ULTIMATE MA IN THE WORLD! lol!

Problem is, it never was intended to be one puch one kill but punch with the intention as if to kill with one puch but even that doesn't picture it right, it's more like the puch you know can knock him out, if every puch is like that and you miss you will lose way to much energy, better to look for the right opening
The one puch one kill is BS because if you do not attack other points the opening will not come and then yes any boxer with 6 weeks of experience will knock you of your socks

PS the only way to prevent someone attacking you from behind is back to the wall, tell me what MA does have a good solution to the problem of being attacked from behind while performing another technique to the front?

[CHOKE UK]

TOUDIYAMA you quote ;
Putting a karateka in the ring having to fight a thaiboxer on thaiboxing rules is like asking a soccerplayer to play an american footbal game

I have heard this argument many times before, and it is incorrect.

The art of striking is the art of striking.

The fact they are different is the problem !

karate's rules are part of the problem, and they will say anything to avaid getting in the ring and have the ineffectiveness of karate exposed.

Whats wrong with getting in a ring and saying ok, now fight striking only?

Toudiyama, i'm not having a go at you, your school is probably very good, but most are inferior.
And surely they should want to test themselves in the ring to test the effectiveness/weakness of their style.

But no, they come out with the sam "excuse" as you have just mentioned

Striking ability has few rules and no points given for the one-blow-joe approach.

It is easy to test stand up, striking ability,
get in a ring and just do it.

So it's very different from two sports which have no common objective.

Belts prove nothing,
the "ring" proves striking ability.

Lets say, you were to say no rules at all......realistic.....
And a karateka goes into the ring with a moderate thai boxer, whats the likely outcome?????????????

I have seen it many times,
I know the answer.