how do you tell someone that their style is crap without hurting their feelings?

[Cain]

hehe, "yes let us send a few of our people down to thailand to fight under their rules on their houmecourt, that is fair, and if we loose, that proves that thaiboxing is the best ever, ever, ever" ... WEHEY! *applaudes*

[CHOKE UK]

Originally posted by conach
Before I get to business, my respects to the Dutch martial arts community, especially dutch Muay Thai, Savate and Kyokushinkai... These people know their business. Ramon Dekker is probably the most respected dutch Thai boxer of all times. Dekker had the balls to go to Thailand and kick ass directly at Lumpinee. Well, evenly... He kicked ass and also got his kicked. But no matter what, he stood up there and showed that the dutch are a menace. My respects Toudiyama...

Ok... "Also even if a karateka would enter and be beaten by a thaiboxer, does that mean that in a real life situation a karateka will always lose?"... Yes, a karateka will always lose to a Thai boxer, either competing or "real life". A karateka can't stand "real life" Thai strikes, it would be a blood bath. No karateka can't stand up to a Thai boxer, period. And "putting a karateka in the ring having to fight a thaiboxer on thaiboxing rules is like asking a soccerplayer to play an american footbal game"... That test was done years ago directly in Thailand and Thai boxers mopped the floor with Karatekas, Kung-Fu fighters, Benny Urquidez and even Don "Dragon" Wilson. We can discuss for miles on this matter and the conclusion will always be Muay Thai (and BJJ for grappling). Knees, elbows, headbutts (we're talking "real life", right?)... Come on guys, its perfect!! True Seeker, "it doesn't mean that it is totally unbeatable", but you have to fight hard to beat it. Yes Cain, you're "sick and tired of the bjj/MT hype", but what can we do about it? Muay Thai and BJJ have proven themselves superior, that's not our fault!!

Toudiyama: is it easy or hard to adapt to a full contact style when starting out in karate? Its easier to adapt if you do Kyokushinkai instead of traditional karate styles. I do Kyokushinkai and is a very hard style, and the sparring is in full contact.


How do you tell someone that their style is crap without hurting their feelings? The folks that do traditional karate styles will tell you this... "I do it just for fun, conditioning, and I don't want to be an ass kicker". "Just for conditioning, I don't want to be the next UFC or K1 champion"...

Well said CONACH,
Now there is a man who knows what he is talking about.
Ignore what he says at your peril, MR Karaetka.

And Cain, yes Thailand is a long way to go to find out that generally traditional Karate doesnt work,
when you can go locally to a "ring" and find that out !

How many more excuses can they come up with ?

History tells us that people argued for years that the world wasnt round?

Those types of people still exist today, as Cain, whoops I mean as karateka !

So get rid of the earth is flat/traditional karate works as self defence theory, and "explore" new horizons.

basically there are far more effective and efficient ways to spend your time doing a type of self-defence, than katate.
Not just muay thai, but mt is far superiour to karate as an example !

A modern day Christopher Columbus would say that tradional karate is generally inadequate, and of course "Cain" would argue. !

[Toudiyama]

conach

I must have missed something in the 25+ years of MA, when did MT prove itself supperior?, If you say grabling arts have proven themself in the MMA ring, I totally agree, but when did MT do that?

And when did other arts prove to be inferior?
If they do not compete in MMA events, how do you know they are inferior?
I for one never wanted to compete for myself, only did it for the club( and stopped when the other members of the team didn't considder it neccesary to train for the event)
I only compete with myself, I want to be better than I was not better than someone else( if the other has an off day you might be inclined to think you got better)

what are your argument for saying that Karate (and other trad arts) are inferior?
You dismis the contact as being an important part of it so on what basis and proof do you judge?


Oh, "Karate" does not excist like that, there is no unified karate
there is "xxxxx. Karate"

And we know there is a lot of crap around but when MT got popular a lot of people took some boxing lessons and started teaching MT/kickboxing( in Holland the same)

Thom Harinck the Founder of Chakuriki, one of the most famous dutch gyms started out as somewhat of a charletan being a orange belt in Kyokushin karate and starting his own "style" Chakuriki, later when Jan Plas came back with japanese kickboxing, Thom started doing MT all of a sudden

I always see the same 10-20 schools appearing on the posters of events, so all the other schools do not even compete and we can't tell anything about their effectiveness

I hope you don't base your opinion on the fact that one is more likely to see people use MT on the streets than Karate, because that's because karate teaches you to avoid a fight if you can, even if you think you can win
Now you probably will say they say so because otherwise karate is proven to be inferior, but that is crap because this is something that even karate's predesessor, White crane quanfa had this as one of it's teachings (were talking 19th century here)

Styles derived from post war Shotokan whose founders didn't also go to other okinawan masters or had a background in other fighting arts, are like kendo, iaido and kyudo, mainly meant as fysical/mental excercises
But guys like Oyama Matsutatsu, Koishi Yashuhiro and Ohtsuka Hironori Put things back in Karate that had been taken out by Itosu"Anko" Yatsutsune, for the introduction of karate on the highschools (pre-arranged and free sparring to name one)
Karate on Okinawa and Koryu Uchinadi is much closer to what karate is supposed to be than most Japanese mainland variants

PS Karate isn't a "Martial Art" it's a civil selfdefence tradition (never intended for battlefield)

Yes I'm primarely a Karateka but when fighting for real will use anything that works in that situation

Last point, I see a lot of people saying that trads take too long to learn, that's all peronal and doesn't say anything
If you travel from south to north and take the scenic route, you will take longer but in the end will have learned more about the country

[Cain]

sigh, our little dipshitted kiddo choke, has _still_ not read that i am not a karateka, i have never done karate, and i never _will_ do karate.. if he learned to read sentences longer than his nose, he might find out..! and if you read other posts, you will find out that I'm not into any traditional arts.. but ofcourse, let us ignore that and call me karateka? i just love it when kids act all ignorant and dumb.. oh.. wait.. did i say _act_..? i meant _are_...



First of all, one of the bouncers i work with is a kyoshikan(or how the hell that is spelled) karate-guy, and well, i think i can say that his shins are harder than most MT's, his punches are harder than most MT's and well, he know how to fight on the street, and he know how to win! and we also have a MT guy at work, who don't do much else than standing in the back letting other guys doing the work.. but does this prove that karate is better than MT? neh, but it proves that individual effort and skills are what counts when it comes to martial arts! all this "my art is better than your art" bullshit is just that, bullshit! and if you kids could grow past that, it would be really nice.. to think that one single art has all that is needed and that it is ultimate? never.. an art that has little or no grappling, no use or defence for weapons, no training for multiple opponents, nothing other than sports-based/rule-based training.. what am i talking about? Take a wild guess.. NOW.. i don't think MT is bad, i think MT is great.. AMONG a lot of other arts.. beacause i don't have this childish need to do 'advanced' versions of the "my father is stronger than your father, and my cock is longer than yours" thing..

[CHOKE UK]

CAIN,


SO HOW LONG YOU BEEN DOING "KARATE" THEN ?

[CHOKE UK]

Originally posted by Cain
[arts.. beacause i don't have this childish need to do 'advanced' versions of the "my father is stronger than your father, and my cock is longer than yours" thing.. [/B]

CAIN, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT "COCK-FIGHTING" !!!!!

[Cain]

it is sad, yes sad it is..

[Guest]

"Yes, a karateka will always lose to a Thai boxer, either competing or "real life"."

"Always" never applies. No style will "always" win.

You forget to take account of the people in these fights. Its the man (or woman) that counts.