Native American fighting arts?

[ryanhall]

it appears i know a little more about Native american history then you do

We'll see about that, my Canadian friend.

question. what happens after they throw the tomahawk?

They pulled out their knife and used it on whoever was unfortunate enough to be close to them.

Some groups of Native americans where extremely war like.

You don't say? The Iriquois were one example of this, and they had quite an alliance of tribes that they set against the European settlers and soldiers. However, just because a group is warlike does not mean that they develop sophistocated martial arts.

the Native americans had a much easyer time living in america then the europeans did originaly.

After this gem, I might as well just quit while I am only a little behind. They LIVED here. The fact that had an easier time surviving in their homeland than a bunch of invaders without a clue about what they would encounter doesn't say anything special about the Native Americans or their abilities.

For the aztec and mayan (and that other one i cant remember lol) civilizations in some respects where more advanced then the Europeans that came and destroyed it.

In SOME respects, they were superior. In most respects, however, especially the ones that mattered, they were far inferior. Mass human sacrifice is not a symbol of cultural advancement in my opinion (the Aztecs might tell you different). Rocks don't beat guns and armor. Score: Spain 2, Myans/Incas/Aztecs 0.

The development of highly sophistocated martial arts takes liesure time, and most of the Indians/Native Americans didn't have it. I'm sure that they practiced hitting things, but their methods would have been simple and brutal. Flowery BS does not come into existence during wartime. They, were, however, extremely good tool users. When they had the bow and arrow, they were excellent shots. The same can be said of the tomahawk. They abandoned these weapons for the most part when guns were introduced to them. They mastered the use of a horse as a means of conveyance. I believe that they referred to it as the god dog (as one horse was as value as a pack of dogs). This is a pragmatic approach that results from hardship. Empty hands are not really a means of war. They are a last resort. As a result, they would be the last priority on the list for someone interested in survival in harsh times like those experienced by the Native Americans.

[Szczepankiewicz]

their homeland than a bunch

Thanks to Ryanhall for illustrating the correct usage of 'than' in the then/than conundrum.

You're a helluva moderator.

Spanky

[Kingston]

lol spanky sorry if i have bad grammar cant help how i was born.

Fortunatly there are others things that come easy to me. Please dont troll the board with personel insults.

[Szczepankiewicz]

If you promise not to proclaim yourself smarter than everyone, I'll agree to avoid posting 'jabs' at you.

Deal?

[ryanhall]

That's 'personal' insults. Sorry, I had to do it.

Thanks to Ryanhall for illustrating the correct usage of 'than' in the then/than conundrum.

I rule (insert picture of me bracing for cutdown after self-proclaimation of greatness)

[Kingston]

Originally posted by ryanhall


The development of highly sophistocated martial arts takes liesure time, and most of the Indians/Native Americans didn't have it. I'm sure that they practiced hitting things, but their methods would have been simple and brutal. Flowery BS does not come into existence during wartime. They, were, however, extremely good tool users. When they had the bow and arrow, they were excellent shots. The same can be said of the tomahawk. They abandoned these weapons for the most part when guns were introduced to them. They mastered the use of a horse as a means of conveyance. I believe that they referred to it as the god dog (as one horse was as value as a pack of dogs). This is a pragmatic approach that results from hardship. Empty hands are not really a means of war. They are a last resort. As a result, they would be the last priority on the list for someone interested in survival in harsh times like those experienced by the Native Americans.

this would be true for those plains indians who followed the buffalo herd around, but not in one of the biggest cities in the world, with a population far greater then any spanish city with sofisticated irrigation systems ahead of what the spanish had.

Now add the fact that the Aztecs where extremly warlike....Its a good bet you'll get some hand to hand fighting, as well as strategy to go along with it.

looks like i crawled ahead agian

[Kingston]

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
If you promise not to proclaim yourself smarter than everyone, I'll agree to avoid posting 'jabs' at you.

Deal?

its not my problem if your affended by people smarter then you

[ryanhall]

looks like i crawled ahead agian

Close, but no. The Aztecs were thrashed by the Spanish, and Spanish knife fighting methods and techinques were FAR superior to anything found in America, or the Orient for that matter. Europe, far more than any other area save the Islamic Middle East, was based upon science and what worked. No magic, no mythos, just bare bones effectiveness. The Filipinos were influenced greatly by Spanish blade methods (why do you think all the names are in Spanish?), and it was this influence that added so greatly to their effectiveness. Bam. And another one bites the dust.

[terry]

From what I have seen so far on this thread if I had to go to battle with Kingston I would choose three things as my weapons: English grammar, punctuation and spelling.

Terry

P.S.: Kingston, you should investigate the accounts of Pizarro's capture of the King of the Incas. Maybe if you wrote a report on it might compensate for the abyssmal grades you must get in English.

[Kingston]

what do you think would happen if an army with more sophisticated weapons, riding giant beasts, who signed peace treaties then attacked the next morning, kidnaped the king/leader of the country, attacked europe during the black death?

thats kind of what happened to the Aztecs.

Remeber also that it wasn't just the spanish doing the fighting, the spanish would make an alliance with the opposing "tribe" send in the the natives to do the dirty work, and take all the credit and all the gold.

accualy the spanish almost got "thrashed" before they even started, some natives found them and attacked after some miscomunication. luckely they where able to survive through the battle clear things up and use those very Natives who attacked them to help them.

even with MA's how can you stop a man with a sword ontop a horse weaing metal armor. What about guns?

your argument that "well the spanish beat them with superior weapons and armor" does not mean that the Natives did not have effective martial arts.

Not to mention the Natives played a different game when it came to war, they didn't conquer and destroy other nations such as the Europeans where used to.

The spanish did alot to trick the Aztecs as well, Montazuma accualy signed over mexico to the spanish, i dout he even knew exactly what it ment to sign that document, he could have been told anything realy. (apparently he had stockholm's syndrom as well) his own people where said to stone him to death.

[Kingston]

Originally posted by terry
From what I have seen so far on this thread if I had to go to battle with Kingston I would choose three things as my weapons: English grammar, punctuation and spelling.

Terry

P.S.: Kingston, you should investigate the accounts of Pizarro's capture of the King of the Incas. Maybe if you wrote a report on it you compensate for the abyssmal grades you must get in English.

accualy i do well in english (spell checker/proof reading)

English is easy all you have to do is have a good thesis and be able to back it up with information. OR right an insightfull report.

[Kingston]

i said above the spanish did not do the fighting, i ment that they had a small but affective roll, most of the deaths where incurred by their Native allies.

[terry]

Okay, time to inject a little historical information into this flame-fest. In the century between Chrisopher Columbus' voyage to the West Indies and the founding of Roanoak, VA the population of North America declined by 95%. Why? Disease. Speficically, the Indians has no immunity to the diseases emerging over hundreds of years from relatively denser populations in Europe.

A similar situation happened in Central and South America. The arrival of European populations was devastating to the populations and cultures that were living there. The actual accounts have some pretty interesting twists and turns. In the case of Pizarro, the Incas were awed by horses and confused their attackers with the gods in their own mythology. As a result, the Incas were inadequately prepared--psychologically and militarily--to defend against an attack from their honored guests, and a relatively small attacking force managed to decapitate an entire empire.

Fast forward to Magellan's voyage. Fresh from conquests in the Americas the conquisdadores were strutting their stuff when they sailed into Cebu. Guess what? The Cebuanos already had immunities to western diseases. And, oh, the cebuanos had metallury similar to the Europeans which they got from the arabs. Still, gunpowder would have made the difference, right? Wrong. If Pigafetta is correct, the Europeans lacked an element of surprise, knowledge of the local waterways and didn't succeed in getting their troops out of the boats and ashore. The Spaniards were engaged by 1500 pissed-off cebuanos in three divisions. Knee deep in the surf, the Spaniards found their steel armor to be a hindrance in the water. Magellan as well as many of his men paid with their lives.

There. Now isn't that more interesting than throwing around flames?

Terry

[Kingston]

Originally posted by terry
Kingston, it sounds like you would get something out of reading a book called "Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fate of Human Civilizations". It discusses some of the same issues that you bring up--only with a more data.

oops missed this post, ya my friend has that book, we had a few discussion about how great the spanish conquest realy was, lol i mite deside to get it from him.

[Kingston]

hold on now pizzaro?....who was the guy who kidnaped Montazuma (spelling?)
his names on the tip of my tongue.