Karate revisited

[CHOKE UK]

Different?.....Yeah, i think it could be the needle variety, or maybe pills,
but he is definately a user.

...lol v funny!

wardancer I was interested to hear you say how you would run a Karate class if you instructed at one!

Then it wouldnt be karate.......!
you described simialr to a muay thai type class!
So surely it'd be a kind of myuay thai class with pretty coloured belts!

Thats my point!

You wouldnt be able to change it,
You cant tell the judges in competitions to change the rules!
or imply that the grandmaster's traditions are outdated!

So your "realistic-moves" would not be allowed!

I can always remember many years ago in a karate competition,
delivering a Front/push kick that connected beautifully!

In muay thai it would have been applauded!
But in karate the judge frowned upon it, saying that the angle of trodjectory was wrong!

This is one example of many times when karate has lost the plot!
I must have mistakenly thought that it was self-defence we were meant to be doing!

wardancer, the other point is that if u had this class and was allowed to run it the way you would like, i.e. like a muay thai class,
then you would very probably find that most of your class would no longer attend!
Many people dont want to really face the ugly realities of combat!

Hence things like solo-dancing instead and calling it Kata!
It'll be on t.v. soon presented by terry wogan ,
instead of "come-dancing!" it'll be called "come-Kata!"
Cha-cha-cha!

[Thai Bri]

That touches on a great point. People espouse all this "Kata is good" nonsense because they get to boost their sad egos with the "fact" that they are learning to fight without having to do any of the hard work.

[IPON]

Especially get rid of the unhealthy Japanese idolisation of kissing the ass of anybody that claim seniority!!!

I don't blame you I would not kiss -up to someone either. However, to clarify there is a difference between (expected) ass kissing and respect and will not as common BJJ is not immune to this as well

[IPON]

i.e. like a muay thai class, then you would very probably find that most of your class would no longer attend! Many people dont want to really face the ugly realities of combat!

This, I believe, is the heart of the problem and why MA should not be studied by just anyone. In people's defense that have day jobs it is not really good to walk into the directors office with the face bruised and cut after every practice. But I completely agree with your pointpeople don't truely want to work/train hard to achieve results everyone wants to be a master after 2years of half assed training and compltly miss the point of MA and training. Nonone wants to be hurt or sore, they complain "oooowwwwwww that block was tooo hard" all wusses. I understand people are in MAs for different reasons but the consistent theme is supposed to be fighting.

Forgive me just have a bad day and I am venting.

[sherwinc]

That touches on a great point. People espouse all this "Kata is good" nonsense because they get to boost their sad egos with the "fact" that they are learning to fight without having to do any of the hard work.

Martial Arts is extremely useless if there is no "Kata", "Pomsee", "Kun and Chien", "Set Patterns"

Why?
cause it is the BLUEPRINT of your Martial Art, and all of the ancestors art deep secret to fighting is all stored there in the Set Patterns, if you cannot break the code of your Set Pattern, then it is not my problem......

[Thai Bri]

Well folks, you heard it here first. sherwinc says that Kata is essential, so it must be true.

Tell me, sherwincy baby, how come there are a great many hard men who have never done a kata in their lives?

Convinced?

[sherwinc]

Well folks, you heard it here first. sherwinc says that Kata is essential, so it must be true.

Tell me, sherwincy baby, how come there are a great many hard men who have never done a kata in their lives?

Convinced?

HAW HAW HAW, a very easy kind of question........

it is like asking "Why do you believe in god even thou you dont see him on your naked eyes??????"

to see is to believe right????? as an evidence??????

then, i already answered your questions

[Thai Bri]

Am I the only one who thinks this guy is from the planet Zog?

[gracilva]

Am I the only one who thinks this guy is from the planet Zog?

This is why i don't even answer his posts anymore.

[wardancer]

...lol v funny!

wardancer I was interested to hear you say how you would run a Karate class if you instructed at one!

Then it wouldnt be karate.......!
you described simialr to a muay thai type class!
So surely it'd be a kind of myuay thai class with pretty coloured belts!

Thats my point!

You wouldnt be able to change it,
You cant tell the judges in competitions to change the rules!
or imply that the grandmaster's traditions are outdated!



Many people dont want to really face the ugly realities of combat!

Hence things like solo-dancing instead and calling it Kata!
It'll be on t.v. soon presented by terry wogan ,
instead of "come-dancing!" it'll be called "come-Kata!"
Cha-cha-cha!

Why not?
The Gracie have done it with the JJ and made their own version wich is BJJ.
Take a Karate team, make them compete in K1/thai box competition. Use Karate and experiments with what works and throw away the stuff that
don't.

Low kicks are used in modern karate. Traditional Karate does not want to use them. So what? Funakoshi (Shotokan Karate creator) refused any form of competition. JKA had to wait until he passed away to start having competition to attract people especially Japanese University Kids.
There is an Aikido school that allows a certain level of competition (Tomiki style I think). That did not stop Mas Oyama to use new weapons for his style of Karate.

I mean the concept seems to be unreal for you because it is very unlikely that an Karate individual or a small team can win Kick boxing event and create a following of students that would make enough students to open a club.

What if it was the Brazilian Kyokushin Karate stylist Francisco Filho?
He is a 6-year veteran of the K-1 with 13-7-3 record and 9 KOs. Filho won a number of Kyokushin tournament titles from '91 to '99 and won the K-1 world grand prix 2000 in Yokohama event.

What if that guy open his club to train people?

Would you called it Karate?

I would...

[CHOKE UK]

wardancer, carefull u r beginning to sound a bit like sher-wank!!!!

No disrespect but you are no-gracie!

Their family spent decades building their type of jui jitsu and still modify it to this day!

If you throw anyway everything that doesnt work in karate,
then u throw away karate !

why bother with decades of trying to change peoples mind that dont want to hear the truth!
I dont follow your logic?
When u can simply do Muay thai in the first place!!!!!!!!!

People like sher-wank arent going to listen when u tell them everything they have wasted their time doing for the past 10 years was a dead loss!

so they live in denial!

I have seen it so many times,
black belts 3rd dans etc come to one lesson and all of them recieved a "shock"..........as I had done previously.

But where it opened my eyes, and I though"oh god i haave been wasting my time for soo long, it's gotta change here and now!"
Most Karateka simply walk away with tail between legs and dont come back!

I had tried dozens of arts before but
Full Muay Thai opened my eyes to the striking art!
But anyone who says it is not hard in everyway is a fibber!
Like I say it's not for everyone!
Thats why they have Terry Wogans "come-kata!" dance competitions,
starring sher-wank and perhaps wardancer if he's not careful............................(mmmm what a luvly couple!)....only joking war-dancer!

[Thai Bri]

Sounds like we had our eyes opened in similar ways mate! At least we rose to the challenge.

Most people stumble across the truth and then walk away as if nothing had happened.

[scafpilot]

I see your untouchable soccer ball and defeat it with my dim sum deathlook!

That analogy was classic by the way.

We need a "Greatest posts ever" poll.

(okay, I'll stop provoking)

[Blackwood]

Sigh. Same conversation that I've seen in a dozen forums. People seem to forget that there is a difference between martial skills and a martial art. A martial art encompasses martial skills, but that is no longer the focus on fighting that there was in the past. Much of it is focussed on avoiding the confrontation.

Anyway, the only reason I registered was to comment on Nakasone Sensei.

I have trained with Nakasone on many occassions (and Abet Sensei on three or four occassions) as well as Iha Hanshi on a regular basis.

This guy is amazing. I have seen him do all sorts of breaking demos, bats, boards, loose boards and even paper hanging from a string. I have never seen a man so smooth in his movements. And he can take a shot without any indication that it landed.

It is truly amazing how much of the power can be pulled out of a punch or kick with a tap in the right place. Boxers do it all the time, a quick tap to the bicep and the punch is worthless. A bit of body shifting to allow the focus of the technique to miss the target and a lot more power is gone. Nakasone teaches how to allow the power to slide out of the way.

Bottom line is that he is the primary sparring master in the style and I wouldn't want to mess with him in any situation. How would he do in a ring? Depends on what set of rules are allowed, but I'd bet on him!

Note: Going for the sweet spot on the bat with the forearm is not an easy thing to do. Want to risk your arm on aiming for it? I've been uke for him and when he applies a joint lock or hold, it isn't 'fake.'

[Naihanchin]

Full circle

After starting this post I read Mark Bishop's Okinawa Island of Karate, spoke to several okinawan practitioners and japanese practitioners


The bottom line is best summarized by the following interview with a universally recognized karate great who died in the last decade. This interview with Grandmaster Hohan Soken is dated 1978 but speaks volumes about most karate styles today as they are practiced. Particullary I refer to the grappling that he discusses. Note that Soken states "that grappling was taken very seriously and it was not uncommon for individuals to suffer broken arms and legs as a result of taking part in this light form of entertainment." This interview is a testimony that grappling was not simply showing locks but that there was competition. Thus, according to Soken's words, any fighting art that is merely punches and kicks without an emphasis on grappling and weaponry is not truly a fighting discipline

http://www.xs4all.nl/~frits007/history/soken.htm