MT & SanShou differences applicable for street defense

[Rebiu]

Let see, you basically have zero substantial argument in your post. You said that San Shou was created as a propaganda for the army. Ok, you find the proof since you make the claim.

What proof would convince a little commie groupie like you.

But either way, it doesn't change what I said. San shou was created by the army so they have a universal system of hand to hand fighting, not to counter against Muay Thai or whatever crap you spew.

Wow you really have lost you decorum. I have known several veterans and none of them have ever engaged an enemy in hand-to-hand combat. How many veterans have you met that say they killed the enemy in this way? I used to train the Kansas highway patrol in hand to hand. There were no round kicks. The focus was on gun retention, knee on the stomach ground control. Striking was done with the, baton of flashlight. I trained with a navy seal in BJJ class. He said the only application used in the military was in control prisoners on the ground.

Saying that armies use guns and not hand to hand combat is as dumb as the rest of your post.

This statement verifies that you are an idiot

Of course bulk of armed forces is about weapons training, but that doesn't mean that hand to hand combat is not important and is not found in real war situations.

Evidence please.

Every army in the world have hand to hand combat taught in training.

Please elaborate. What system does the US Army use.

I don't know what using guns have to to do with it.

You understood a few sentences ago when you said the bulk of training is with weapon systems.

Muay Thai is still use in the Thai army, for example.

Muay Thai is not a product of the Thai military.

Muay Thai have throws before San Shou was around? Kung fu have throws before Muay Thai existed.

San Shou is not Kung fu.

The ancient Romans had throws before Muay Thai existed?

Wrestling is certainly not San Shou.

Thai fighters don't even use throws in the ring as a main weapon.

That is an overgeneralization and inaccurate.

They hardly use throws.

That is an overgeneralization and inaccurate.

Saying Muay Thai have harder throws means nothing because there is no video proof. I am playing dumb? I don't think so buddy. You are the one who said: "MT is a sport as is San Shou neither is appropriate for MMA or real fighting." LOL. Try harder next time. MT and SS are not effective in real fighting? I don't know what you are smoking. Since you don't even know who Cung Le is,

She is that Chinese fighter on streetfighter II

I don't think you know much about San Shou in the first place. Vertical Elbows? Spinning elbows? Bajiquan had vertical elbows way before Muay Thai.

Bwahaahahah. Bajiquan is a joke, a fake style. Ancient chinese secreat.

Tiger style kung fu have spinning elbows.

The footwork is different, therefor the techniques are not the same.

Thai style roundhouse? I'll give you that. But many other styles have roundhouse kicks too (different methods of course).

What does San Shou do that is not a cheap ripoff of a much better style for doing it?

Next, I asked you to name some arts that are better than San Shou and are like San Shou at the same time. Instead you name arts that have totally different emphasis than San Shou. Muay Thai is better than San Shou. Not in recent head to head competition. In fact there is no evidence that Muay Thai is better, just depends on the fighter. It is not better or worse. Boxing is better than San Shou? Your evidence for this is? Nowhere. Wrestling is better than San Shou? How can you compare a pure grappling art with a primary a stand up/takedown art with groundfighting? Their strategy is not even the same. San Shou wrestling is fast wrestling that utilize the clinching of limbs during punching or kicking attacks of the opponent along with fast body throws. Wrestling is about submissions on ground usually using clinching of the entire body more and the focus on gaining the correct and dominate position. San Shou is not better than wrestling and vice versa, they are just different. Saying wrestling is better than San Shou is like saying wrestling is better than Muay Thai. It makes no sense. A good Thai fighter with good takedown defense can beat a wrestler. Likewise, a good San Shou fighter with takedown defense or hard throws can beat a wrestler.

There are no San Shou fighter with good takedown defense.

On the other hand, a good wrestling that takes down both probably have the advantage because wrestling have a much deeper submission game. Again, it just depends on the fighter, not the art. And BJJ? Same thing. BJJ is better groundfighting art because it is purely about groundfighting. San Shou is a standup/takedown art with some groundfighting. San Shou have better stand up game and BJJ have a better ground game. One is not better than the other...they are just different art with different emphasis. Your last point is also irrelevent. MMA beats San Shou? Did I say MMA couldn't beat San Shou? No. MMA is a combination of arts. Obviously it has multiple advantages over a single art.

San Shou is a compilation of arts meant to be complete. Where are the San Shou mma champions?

So far, I don't see a single arguement that refutes what I said before.

I do not think you are capable of seeing in as it is right there in front of you.

[Ello]

All chinese martial arts summarised: Kung Fu. The last time I checked San Shou/San Da is chinese.

Do you really think soldiers aren't taught how to fight without weapons? So according to you a soldier is defensless when they're out of bullets and lost their knife.

Duh, just because something is called a spinning elbow doesn't mean it always executed the same way. Of course there's a name that generalizes it, but that's why when we talk about a particular one, we put they exact name in front of it(this case: MT spinning elbow, Tiger style spinning elbow).

Cung le is not that chick from SF II. That's Chun li. Why don't you just admit that Cung le is one of the best fighters these days.

You are forgetting that San Shou is based on chinese martial art systems. So the roundhouse is probably based of a chinese system, but defintly not MT.

BTW some minor points: you are avoiding the point saying wrestling is not san shou and sanshou is not kung fu. According to you if someone invented a move and 5000 miles somewhere else someone invented that one too. The credit goes to the first dude.

Basicly your post is flawed and it's enough to wipe my ass with

[jubaji]

According to you if someone invented a move and 5000 miles somewhere else someone invented that one too. The credit goes to the first dude.

"The credit"?!

This whole argument is stupid.

[Tom Yum]

All chinese martial arts summarised: Kung Fu. The last time I checked San Shou/San Da is chinese.

Do you really think soldiers aren't taught how to fight without weapons? So according to you a soldier is defensless when they're out of bullets and lost their knife.

Duh, just because something is called a spinning elbow doesn't mean it always executed the same way. Of course there's a name that generalizes it, but that's why when we talk about a particular one, we put they exact name in front of it(this case: MT spinning elbow, Tiger style spinning elbow).

Cung le is not that chick from SF II. That's Chun li. Why don't you just admit that Cung le is one of the best fighters these days.

You are forgetting that San Shou is based on chinese martial art systems. So the roundhouse is probably based of a chinese system, but defintly not MT.

BTW some minor points: you are avoiding the point saying wrestling is not san shou and sanshou is not kung fu. According to you if someone invented a move and 5000 miles somewhere else someone invented that one too. The credit goes to the first dude.

Basicly your post is flawed and it's enough to wipe my ass with

Ello, Sanshou is mostly muay thai. The only techniques that I've seen that are arguably gong fu are the side-kick, spinning back kick and spinning back fist. Everything else - jab, cross, hook, uppercut, push kick and round kick are muaythai.

The throws look like they are straight from freestyle wrestling, but I've been told these throws are the same in Chinese wrestling, shuai jiao. Makes sense since there's bound to be overlap between styles.

[Clooneytkd]

I have known several veterans and none of them have ever engaged an enemy in hand-to-hand combat. How many veterans have you met that say they killed the enemy in this way?

first of all veterans are veterans because they are old. they were not put into the environments of today. they weren’t storming buildings they were in trenches.

I used to train the Kansas highway patrol in hand to hand. There were no round kicks. The focus was on gun retention, knee on the stomach ground control. Striking was done with the, baton of flashlight.

Many cops are fat, therefore they cant lift there legs. what happens if he doesn’t have a baton and or flashlight? Most cops lack any real fighting period. Most all cops are never put to the test. No one wants to go to jail because of the fear of having you being their when they drop the soap. If the cops ever pulled over someone who wasn't drunk and actually had some teeth and common sense they wouldn't be in good shape. Evidence? Yes.http://youtube.com/watch?v=BmjDaR-fqQM
3.vs.1...I think that could have ended a lot faster.... But they had there batons....so it was ok.

Muay Thai is not a product of the Thai military. San Shou is not Kung fu.Wrestling is certainly not San Shou.That is an overgeneralization and inaccurate.

First, you have never trained in san da, so for you to say these things show that you are pretty inaccurate. secondly, wrestling is san da, so is boxing, Muay Thai, jujitsu.. ect

What does San Shou do that is not a cheap ripoff of a much better style for doing it?There are no San Shou fighter with good takedown defense.San Shou is a compilation of arts meant to be complete.

What art isn’t a compilation? What art doesn’t try to be complete? All martial arts originated then grew, adding different thing from other arts. "San shou" is relatively new in America. What san shou does best is take things like boxing and muay thai and make them more effective, combining and integrating the two making them work side by side rather than against one another. Like blocking a hook into a clinch. and as for no fighters with takedown defense, you might need to look into that a bit more. Wrestling is involved just as much as boxing and muay thai seeing as how that’s a means to score points.

[MSand114]

i think i heard somewhere that to become a policeman or something in china you have to pass a black belt test in shuai jiao

[Mephariel]

What proof would convince a little commie groupie like you.Wow you really have lost you decorum. I have known several veterans and none of them have ever engaged an enemy in hand-to-hand combat. How many veterans have you met that say they killed the enemy in this way? I used to train the Kansas highway patrol in hand to hand. There were no round kicks. The focus was on gun retention, knee on the stomach ground control. Striking was done with the, baton of flashlight. I trained with a navy seal in BJJ class. He said the only application used in the military was in control prisoners on the ground.This statement verifies that you are an idiotEvidence please.Please elaborate. What system does the US Army use.You understood a few sentences ago when you said the bulk of training is with weapon systems.Muay Thai is not a product of the Thai military. San Shou is not Kung fu.Wrestling is certainly not San Shou.That is an overgeneralization and inaccurate.That is an overgeneralization and inaccurate.She is that Chinese fighter on streetfighter IIBwahaahahah. Bajiquan is a joke, a fake style. Ancient chinese secreat.The footwork is different, therefor the techniques are not the same.What does San Shou do that is not a cheap ripoff of a much better style for doing it?There are no San Shou fighter with good takedown defense.San Shou is a compilation of arts meant to be complete. Where are the San Shou mma champions?I do not think you are capable of seeing in as it is right there in front of you.

Ok, here we go. What proof will convince me? The proof in those videos. And what does those videos show? That San Shou is a good fighting style in the ring. The question is, what proof will convince you? Not a damn thing. I already show you proof, but you refused to accept it. Ok. Because you don't know anything about San Shou and you don't know anything about Chinese Kung fu for that matter. The rest of your post is even more laughable. Let's go through them shall we? You know a couple of veterens that never engaged in hand to hand combat? How does that prove anything? A couple means everyone? Nope. Second, just because they never engaged in hand to hand combat doesn't mean that they don't train for it. Again, your point is moot. Second, you said that police do not train in roundhouse kicks? Maybe not your police unit. Chinese police do train in roundhouse kicks and countering. You need proof? Watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=055ZVThS-oE&mode=related&search=

Koreans:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoCiKKCB8bQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_vXUnYz50w

Russians:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8kwjfc3sKY&mode=related&search=

Again, now who is the idiot here? You I think.

Ok, next: What system does the US army uses? Kali, Wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai. You need proof they train hand to hand? Watch this video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lo4fMMrrg0

Again, now who is the idiot here? You I think. I said a bulk of training is for using weapons. Does that imply that I think they don't train hand to hand? Nope. I think you need to learn how to read. A bulk doesn't mean all.

As for whether or not Muay Thai is a product of the military, it doesn't matter. Muay Thai is used in the military. San Shou is used and trained in the military. And if you insist otherwise, you are just plain dumb. Which you are.

Muay Thai fighters generally do not focus on throws in the ring. Most Thai fighters are strikers, not throwers. If you need proof, watch any Thai fight videos and ask around the boards. Go to the thread called, "Muay Thai weakness," and learn something buddy.

And San Shou is not kung fu. Please explain to me why it is not kung fu. Please. I'll love to hear it. And what does that have to do with whether or not it is in the army? The fact is, armies do train in San Shou hand to hand combat. Give it up fool. You lost.

And your answer to Cung Le shows me you don't even follow San Shou. You don't know anything kid. Retard, lol. Your creadibility on San Shou or martial arts in that matter is zero. Proven over and over again.

"Bajiquan is a joke, a fake style. Ancient chinese secreat."

Hahahahaha. You don't even know what Bajiquan is. A fake style? That is like saying Muay Thai is a fake style. LMFAO. Next time, if you can't refute what I said, exit the debate gracefully. Footwork is different? What is the footwork of Bajiquan? It is a fake style remember? So how can there be footwork? Kid, give it up. You know nothing about martial arts. Vertical elbows are not exclusive to Muay Thai.

What art is better at limb clinching than San Shou? Tell me? What art is better at combining strikes with takedowns than San Shou? Tell me? Besides, I never claim San Shou is the best art. No art is the best. They are all incomplete or simply different. There are no San Shou fighter with good takedown defense? That is like saying there are no Muay Thai fighters with good takedown defense. LOL. What does takedown defense have to do with style? You can be a wrestler and not have good take down defense. Again, THAT my friend is a generalization. Funny how you accused me of generalizing but you are doing it yourself while I did no such thing.

Where are San Shou mma champions? What does that have to do with anything? So if there are no MMA champions, that means the art is not complete? Your logic is that of a six years old.

I think you should go learn more about martial arts and then talk, kid.

[Mephariel]

Ello, Sanshou is mostly muay thai. The only techniques that I've seen that are arguably gong fu are the side-kick, spinning back kick and spinning back fist. Everything else - jab, cross, hook, uppercut, push kick and round kick are muaythai.

The throws look like they are straight from freestyle wrestling, but I've been told these throws are the same in Chinese wrestling, shuai jiao. Makes sense since there's bound to be overlap between styles.

So Tom Yum, jab, cross, hook, uppercut are also in boxing. So does that mean Muay Thai's top game is just boxing then? Since when is push kick and roundhouse kick Muay Thai exclusive? Karate have roundhouse kicks too right? They don't necesarry contact with the shin, but you get what I am saying. A lot of arts have overlapping techniques like you said it yourself.

[Tom Yum]

So Tom Yum, jab, cross, hook, uppercut are also in boxing. So does that mean Muay Thai's top game is just boxing then? Since when is push kick and roundhouse kick Muay Thai exclusive? Karate have roundhouse kicks too right? They don't necesarry contact with the shin, but you get what I am saying. A lot of arts have overlapping techniques like you said it yourself.

The original San Shou Lei Tai matches were between various gong fu masters of different styles. Check out this clip of a San Shou Lei Tai match in 1986. Its fought without gloves, head gear, groin cup and the throws are done on solid ground (no matts). It hardly resembles sanshou of today. You do not see low thai-style kicks or boxing punches from these fighters; you do see side kicks, spinning back kicks and some high/hard throws.

http://www.wugongsantafe.com.ar/leitai.htm

Fast forward to today.

Modern Sanshou is a style created by Chinese coaches who studied muaythai and added throws from shuai jiao. The matches are fought in a boxing ring, with practitioners wearing boxing gloves. The style borrows the round kick and push kick from muay thai and the punches are from western boxing. That's a fact.

The other strikes and takedowns are from shuaijiao.

[Mephariel]

The original San Shou Lei Tai matches were between various gong fu masters of different styles. Check out this clip of a San Shou Lei Tai match in 1986. Its fought without gloves, head gear, groin cup and the throws are done on solid ground (no matts). It hardly resembles sanshou of today. You do not see low thai-style kicks or boxing punches from these fighters; you do see side kicks, spinning back kicks and some high/hard throws.

http://www.wugongsantafe.com.ar/leitai.htm

Fast forward to today.

Modern Sanshou is a style created by Chinese coaches who studied muaythai and added throws from shuai jiao. The matches are fought in a boxing ring, with practitioners wearing boxing gloves. The style borrows the round kick and push kick from muay thai and the punches are from western boxing. That's a fact.

The other strikes and takedowns are from shuaijiao.

I saw that Lei Tai video many times and quite frankly I thought it was too short to show anything. Those fighters are not modern San Shou fighters anyway. San Shou has been in development before 1986 depending on what you considered to be modern San Shou. I think you got confused between San Shou as an art and San Shou as a sport. San Shou as a sport borrow many ideas from many arts including Muay Thai. This is the same for all arts like Karate, etc because they want a uniform system where it is easy to score points. But to claim that San Shou as an art itself is mostly Muay Thai is inaccurate. San Shou I would say doesn't even have the same focus as Muay Thai.

BTW, push kicks and roundhouse kicks are not exclusive to Muay Thai as I said before. Pushing strikes are done in many styles of martial arts.

[Tom Yum]

But to claim that San Shou as an art itself is mostly Muay Thai is inaccurate. San Shou I would say doesn't even have the same focus as Muay Thai.

Maybe you've got more depth in the art, so my ears are open.

I understand one of the goals is to slam your opponent into the ground from the greatest height possible and that most of the techniques for doing so come from shuai jiao.

Other than the side kick, spinning kicks/backfists from generic gong-fu what other techniques are there that aren't borrowed from muaythai/boxing?

[Mephariel]

Maybe you've got more depth in the art, so my ears are open.

I understand one of the goals is to slam your opponent into the ground from the greatest height possible and that most of the techniques for doing so come from shuai jiao.

Other than the side kick, spinning kicks/backfists from generic gong-fu what other techniques are there that aren't borrowed from muaythai/boxing?

Plenty. Open palm techniques, ground sweeps, Chin Na, finger strikes, etc. Many Chinese styles like Tai Chi or Pakua also have their own San Shou styles. Again, I think you are confusing between San Shou sport and San Shou style. Karate for example, have plenty of open palm techniques. But do you see Karate fighters in the ring use them? In the ring, you always have a unified style of fighting. But sport fighting doesn't define the art itself.

[Tom Yum]

I see what you mean.

So each style of gung fu has its own version of chin-na (grappling) and san shou (free fighting).

[MSand114]

hard to palm with a boxing glove on

[Tom Yum]

hard to palm with a boxing glove on

Its hard to grapple as well.