Everyone is wearing Thai trunks.

[WhiteTiger]

Ok..Much text there khun Kao.. But you dident answer my question. How do you grade the students. And yes it ofcourse many ppl whant do all the Thai stuff. But that you can get by in letting beginners train with beginners and have diffrent classses. And for the advanced ppl. You have the brutal thai style aprotch to the trining.

( Exuse me for my spelling )

[Tom Yum]

Rickster, I think the belt (or shorts) thing is simply a way of certifying that someone was able to perform up to a certain standard. Its also a way of generating revenue for the business owner (in some cases a black belt test alone can cost upward of $1,000!! )...that's a little unfair in my personal opinion, but that's business.

Overall I don't think the belt system is a bad thing unless the school is producing 1st dans that have never sparred or grappled and are over charging.

Ideally, the school produces black belts who not only become better, well rounded citizens and martial artists but also those who can demonstrate their art against some resistance.

[Rickster]

I understand the confusion many have over the practice of a MuayThai "Grading System", because "real" MuayThai doesn't have one.

Neither does "real" Chuan Fa (Gong Fu), Karate, Jiu Jitsu, etc.,

In my own experience, it stems from the American culture, or should I say, American's expectations! In the U.S. the 'culture' of martial arts is that you test for rank and earn colored belts. That is what Americans expect. Blame it on Judo. Blame it on Karate. Blame it on Taekwondo. Blame it on the White House.... it simply doesn't matter. The American public, in general, equates martial arts training with starched white uniforms, board-breaking, and colored belts. The popularity of the UFC is starting to change this perception, but I am willing to be if you asked your average lay-person about martial arts training, they'd mention earning colored belts as part of the learning process.

Of course, Americans have to affix a value to something. but in martial arts, this can be a false entity. For example a person with a 4th dan belt is not sbjected to be two times, 2x, better than one of 2nd dan.

So MuayThai starts to make its appearance here in the States in what? The 70's, while the martial arts industry is experiencing a bit of a "boom" due to the popularity of Kung Fu films (especially those with Bruce Lee). These movies do nothing to dispel the notion of a ranking system based on colored belts (though they don't 'exactly' support it, either). So Thai coaches are finding themselves trying to meet public demand to teach their art.

The public demand is laso the sunstomers. Customers=profit.

Back in Thailand, Thai's are used to repetitive training drills.... pretty much coming to train each day and following the same routine. Its expected. You do as your coach instructs you to do or you don't fight. If you don't fight, you don't get paid. If you don't get paid, you don't eat. MuayThai is a lifestyle, not a hobby.

Exactly. which why I think the need to do hardcore conditong such as shin, knuckle, etc., over kill.

But here in the USA, not only do people not NEED to fight to support themselves, but even those who would/could do so do not have the venues in which to fight and earn a living wage. MuayThai is NOWHERE NEAR as popular as Boxing or even Professional Wrestling, and there simply is not any real system in place to support it. Even today as it is gaining in popularity due to UFC & MMA fights, it still does not have an effective system in place to provide opportunities to fight and earn money.

Per my reponse above. In many civilized and highly social environments, fighting is a mere entertainment. And one not justifiable for survival.

So here in the States, people train in MuayThai predominantly as a form of exercise and self-defense. Unfortunately, due to martial arts being a recreation as opposed to being a career path, this changes the culture of the gym. In Thailand, the training is simple, INTENSE, and repetitive. But that is the way it is EXPECTED to be. Here in the USA & abroad, people simply aren't willing to sacrifice their bodies in such a way for what is viewed as a hobby. The intensity needs to be seriously dampened, and the training cannot become too repetitive or your students rapidly become bored and will find another hobby.

How true.

This is how & why ranking systems have come into play. It makes it much simpler for a MuayThai coach to maintain the focus of his students, by having a goal for them to attain aside from simply working out.

becuase the students are not "hungry" to survive.

If the same structure system was in place for fighters outside of Thailand to compete in MuayThai as exists IN Thailand, then I am willing to be that this whole conversation of colored shorts and ranking systems would be completely moot.

Of course. In Thailand the color of the shorts wont determine the outcome.

[Khun Kao]

I understand the confusion many have over the practice of a MuayThai "Grading System", because "real" MuayThai doesn't have one.

In my own experience, it stems from the American martial arts culture, or rather, American's martial arts expectations! In the U.S. the 'culture' of martial arts is that you test for rank and earn colored belts. That is what Americans expect. Blame it on Judo. Blame it on Karate. Blame it on Taekwondo. Blame it on the White House.... it simply doesn't matter. The American public, in general, equates martial arts training with starched white uniforms, board-breaking, and colored belts. The popularity of the UFC is starting to change this perception, but I am willing to bet if you asked your average lay-person about martial arts training, they'd mention earning colored belts as part of the learning process.

So MuayThai starts to make its appearance here in the States in what? The 70's, while the martial arts industry is experiencing a bit of a "boom" due to the popularity of Kung Fu films (especially those with Bruce Lee). These movies do nothing to dispel the notion of a ranking system based on colored belts (though they don't 'exactly' support it, either). So Thai coaches are finding themselves trying to meet public demand to teach their art.

Back in Thailand, Thai's are used to repetitive training drills.... pretty much coming to train each day and following the same routine. Its expected. You do as your coach instructs you to do or you don't fight. If you don't fight, you don't get paid. If you don't get paid, you don't eat. MuayThai is a lifestyle, not a hobby.

But here in the USA, not only do people not NEED to fight to support themselves, but even those who would/could do so do not have the venues in which to fight and earn a living wage. MuayThai is NOWHERE NEAR as popular as Boxing or even Professional Wrestling, and there simply is not any real system in place to support it. Even today as it is gaining in popularity due to UFC & MMA fights, it still does not have an effective system in place to provide opportunities to fight and earn money.

So here in the States, people train in MuayThai predominantly as a form of exercise and self-defense. Unfortunately, due to martial arts being a recreation as opposed to being a career path, this changes the culture of the gym. In Thailand, the training is simple, INTENSE, and repetitive. But that is the way it is EXPECTED to be. Here in the USA & abroad, people simply aren't willing to sacrifice their bodies in such a way for what is viewed as a hobby. The intensity needs to be seriously dampened, and the training cannot become too repetitive or your students rapidly become bored and will find another hobby.

This is how & why ranking systems have come into play. It makes it much simpler for a MuayThai coach to maintain the focus of his students, by having a goal for them to attain aside from simply working out.

If the same structure system was in place for fighters outside of Thailand to compete in MuayThai as exists IN Thailand, then I am willing to be that this whole conversation of colored shorts and ranking systems would be completely moot.

[WhiteTiger]

...

ok. So now I am woundering. How do you test the students and how good should thay be?. Is it. You can kick good but not perfect grade? Or how is it.
And whate grades are thay then?

[Bryan Popejoy]

Just to throw a curve on things.....when the first US branch of Fairtex opened up in Arizona in the early 1990's, shorts were an earned, tested for item.

So although in Thailand, shorts are shorts.....in the US, at a gym run by and taught by Thais, you had to earn the right to wear them.

My personal opinion? It's not the shorts that matter, it's who is wearing them.

[Ta2dthaiboxr]

We got Thai shorts the first day. That's kind of our "uniform" (school shirt & Muay Thai shorts). It works for our school.

[47MartialMan]

Well- if there is a good quality workout, who cares if they get different colored shorts, shirts, or underwear?

[bigred389]

I agree with this. Ajarn Chai does charge for Khun Khru testings. He does not require specific systems of rankings, that is left up to the individual Khrus', and not all of them do things the same.

Look at Master Toddy in Vegas, doesn't he use colored sashes (like in Kung Fu) to show levels? I have heard of some using colored belts like in Karate or TKD for ranking. While I do not agree with all of the various methods instructors are using, I don't see anything wrong with it either, provided the essence of Muay Thai is still intact within the training.

If one of you who disagree with us were to actually begin your training within a school who utilizes a grading system, you would feel differently, because you would actually enjoy the TRAINING.

Eh...I trained at a place where they had a grading system. I was not very enthused about the concept.

I mean the gym was great...just they didn't make a huge deal out of it, and I simply have become pretty jaded to such systems.

Like the saying goes, Thai boxers only care about one kind of "belt."

[sportmuaythai]

I am NOT in contempt of my students. You are reading too much into my feelings of this practice of making students earn their shorts. I do not follow this practice. I do not have a grading system. My students come to work out and spar.

All I have been saying from the beginning is that I *understand* this practice and that I do not believe there is anything wrong with it. I never said I adhered to it.

This is in reply to all posts related to my posts. I must have stirred up bee hive here, for which I do not apologize. I feel that I've made this thread interesting by offering provocative opinions. However, I apologize to KhunKao for thinking that he promotes ranking (grading?) and the fees that go with it. I think that some of my comments were also interpreted in the wrong way. I'm not making excuse here.
Dear Python, Master Toddy doesn't have high regards among Muaythai circle in Thailand. We look at him as commercialized MT promoter, similar to Don King. While he does retain some good MT instructors, Thais in the US don't think that he himself is in the same league.

[47MartialMan]

Everyone is wearing Thai trunks.

Sounds like a parody to a song-

Instead of "Everybody was Kung Fu Fighting"

"Everybody was Thai-Trunk Wearing"

next verse?

[Python]

You have to understand that its hard to discern the true intent of your comments on an internet message board. Your words can easily be read as though you are mocking us in your comments about colored shorts and testing fees.

Please also understand that many of these practices that you are questioning originated with ex-Thai boxers. The testing for shorts custom is particular to Ajarn Chai Sirisute, and testing fees are used by more Thai instructors than you can shake a stick at.

I agree with this. Ajarn Chai does charge for Khun Khru testings. He does not require specific systems of rankings, that is left up to the individual Khrus', and not all of them do things the same.

Look at Master Toddy in Vegas, doesn't he use colored sashes (like in Kung Fu) to show levels? I have heard of some using colored belts like in Karate or TKD for ranking. While I do not agree with all of the various methods instructors are using, I don't see anything wrong with it either, provided the essence of Muay Thai is still intact within the training.

If one of you who disagree with us were to actually begin your training within a school who utilizes a grading system, you would feel differently, because you would actually enjoy the TRAINING.

[Khun Kao]

Dear Python, I wasn't exactly making issue of the colours. I was just questioning if the testing cost extra money, ie to wear boxing shorts you must pass test, and to test, you have to pay the extra testing fee. I don't see why I'm closed minded about that.

You have to understand that its hard to discern the true intent of your comments on an internet message board. Your words can easily be read as though you are mocking us in your comments about colored shorts and testing fees.

Please also understand that many of these practices that you are questioning originated with ex-Thai boxers. The testing for shorts custom is particular to Ajarn Chai Sirisute, and testing fees are used by more Thai instructors than you can shake a stick at.

[Khun Kao]

I totally agree. I'm puzzled that Americans put more emphasis on accessories ( shorts and arm bands etc.) than Thais do.

Its because these symbols are not commonplace within our own culture. I was the same way when I started MuayThai. I was overly excited about the shorts, the prachiat, the mongkon, even the colored ankle supports. Bear in mind that I trained as a fighter from the get-go. I started fighting within 6 months of training.

These items symbolized that I was doing something special. No other martial art uses these accessories (except other Thai arts). They are a way to show that you aren't just doing "karate" and "cardio-kickboxing" like MOST of the masses do.

All of this probably is alien to someone from Thailand. The shorts have no real significant meaning behind them. The other accessories do, but they don't have the same significance that those outside of the Thai culture assign to them.

[Khun Kao]

I beg to differ from your opinion, Khunkao. I think that you're in contempt of your students. With proper encouragement and interesting as well as productive training, I think students will look foreward more to training than to seek recognition from coloured shorts. Nevertheless, I have nothing against colored status symbols for kids 12 years old or younger.

I am NOT in contempt of my students. You are reading too much into my feelings of this practice of making students earn their shorts. I do not follow this practice. I do not have a grading system. My students come to work out and spar.

All I have been saying from the beginning is that I *understand* this practice and that I do not believe there is anything wrong with it. I never said I adhered to it.