Everyone is wearing Thai trunks.

[jules]

damian

what do you think about this camp? Do you know anything about it?

http://www.tigermuaythai.com

me and my friend want to thailand to train some muay thai and if possilbe also bjj.

[Damian Mavis]

I associate with all walks of life, my friends are superstars, millionaires and even some royal family, my employees and students range from poor ex thai boxers to university students and business men. But of course there are many poor uneducated Thai people I have to interact with every day to buy food and take taxis and I use the lingo they will understand for my own convenience instead of getting blank stares or "ALLAY NA?!".

I think the big problem sportmuaythai is that the Thai language is changing very fast. You talk bout PROPER thai terminology but if millions of Thais are using the words in the wrong context is it really so wrong anymore? Thai boxers told me the terms TENNUH for pad holders and AJARN for head instructor. If they are wrong well.. they are all doing it.

This is just my friends experience: He's lived here 9 years and speaks impecable Thai, he's what you would refer to as anal in his efforts to be perfect in his language skills. He does not suffer imperfection from himself and as a result Thai people argue with him all he time that he was born here when he was not. He just lets them believe what they want to believe. Anyway, over the years he's witnessed a huge change in the Bangkok language. He no longer understands fully what people are saying in the local Starbucks when he overhears educated business people talking trade. The reason he doesn't fully understand anymore is because they are speaking 50% Thai and 50% english mispronounced. These are smart people, not uneducated farmers. But modern Thai seems to be adding more and more bastardized english words all the time and usually in the wrong context but once it catches on it sticks. This is just his experience. I see it too but on a much smaller scale since I don't speak very much Thai.

Japan has been doing this for a while now, many words I hear my Japanese students use and the Japanese TV shows my girlfriend makes me watch are mispronounced english words with a vowel added on the end.

My point is... the Thai language is changing and it's kind of hard to talk about proper Thai when in 100 years there might be a completely different Thai language.

I don't think it's so bad that we changed topics a bit... how much can we say about shorts testings? heh

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD Thailand

[sportmuaythai]

This thread has woefully derailed, but who am I to try and right it?

I train at a very small, modest, camp. I have a trainer who also owns the camp, whom I call Khruu. He holds my pads and does not speak a word of English. A second, older man helps teach as well. He walks around and corrects the fighters. He speaks English, and helps translate. He is in his 60's and does not hold pads anymore. I call him Ajarn. Not because it is the proper boxing terminology for his position, but to show him as much respect as I can. This is similar to the arrangement that Damian mentioned.

Out of curiosity, and sportmuaythai could answer this I think, what do Thais call Ajarn Apidej at Fairtex? Is it just Khruu Apidej, or maybe Khruu yai, or perhaps no formal title at all? Again, I apply the term Ajarn to denote as much respect as possible. I would be interested to know if there is a better way to address a teacher with an increased level of respect.

This turned into a huge jumbled rant, for which I apologize. It's amazing what a morning cup of coffee can do...

I agree that recent posts have deviated from original thread. After this post, I'll refrain from posting matters not pertinent to the thread. While your intention was good, I feel that you misused the word Ajarn. Kru muay would have been perfectly acceptable. A kru should have modesty as his virtue, and you should not tempt him. I'd call the trainer "kru fuek" (ครูฝึก).
Regarding Abhidej, I call him simply kru Abhidej. I feel that Thais value the way you treat them more than the title you address them.

[OctaviousBP]

ไฟสัญญาณจราจร = traffic light (fairly formal). I think the term sportmuaythai used is still colloquial. This thread has woefully derailed, but who am I to try and right it?

When speaking of a green light, I use, and hear Thais say, "Fai Khiaao". When speaking of a red light "Fai Daaeng". When lights in general "Fai Khiaao fai daaeng". I don't hear the Thais use สัญญาณ = signal, but I think, now in retrospect, that that might either just be for my benefit, or that my ear doesn't pick it up yet. "Green fire red fire" is pretty easy for me, so why complicate things?

As far as the English not knowing how to use fire before the 1st century BCE, maybe I'm not understanding the term "use" properly, but humans have had fire for close to a million years. Are the English that slow?

I train at a very small, modest, camp. I have a trainer who also owns the camp, whom I call Khruu. He holds my pads and does not speak a word of English. A second, older man helps teach as well. He walks around and corrects the fighters. He speaks English, and helps translate. He is in his 60's and does not hold pads anymore. I call him Ajarn. Not because it is the proper boxing terminology for his position, but to show him as much respect as I can. This is similar to the arrangement that Damian mentioned.

Out of curiosity, and sportmuaythai could answer this I think, what do Thais call Ajarn Apidej at Fairtex? Is it just Khruu Apidej, or maybe Khruu yai, or perhaps no formal title at all? Again, I apply the term Ajarn to denote as much respect as possible. I would be interested to know if there is a better way to address a teacher with an increased level of respect.

Finally, in terms of shorts and testing... I would echo what Bryan had to say, that it is the individual that is important, not the shorts.

If a gym in the West (or anywhere for that matter) tests its students for shorts, or uses them to denote rank, so be it. As long as they aren't charging for this testing, I have no problem with it. It would be nice if an appreciation for context accompanied the rank, as in "This purple shorts/praciat test has virtually no meaning outside of these walls, or organization", that would be great.

For my personal experience in shorts tests with my TBA school, I always viewed them as a means to guage a student's heart in a controlled circumstance that comes fairly close to simulating an amateur match. Testing for shorts is by no means a necessary step in training at my old gym. I believe we had only 3 shorts tests the whole year last year. However, those that test usually do so in anticipation of their first amateur bout.

In the past I have discussed my views of Muay Thai as being a dynamic sport, so I won't get in to that again, but my question would be "who gets to decide what the "real" Muay Thai is? Who gets to pinpoint the specific characteristics that either include or exclude practitioners from partaking in "authentic" Muay Thai? Can someone be considered a nak muay if they have never performed the initial wai khruu to gain acceptance into a camp? Do any camps still do this? Most would say that a fighter is one who fights, so what's the difference if said fighter tested for shorts? If someone comes up to you in a bar and says "Hey, I have my green Thai shorts" would it irk you so much that you would have to say something, other than "congratulations"?

This turned into a huge jumbled rant, for which I apologize. It's amazing what a morning cup of coffee can do...

[sportmuaythai]

i have a question that is kinda off topic. but i was wondering what the thai people think about outsiders training in muay thai? muay thai has become very popular and people all over the world are learning muay thai. Do the thais look down on this and think outsiders are watering down their art or are they happy that so many people outside thailand have taken notice of their art?

Most Thais welcome foreigners studying muaythai. They would like muaythai to become world heritage. Only a few, particularly the muay boran of Chaiya stream prefer to retain their art among Thais. Recently they have begun to open up to foreign students. I believe it's the financial rewards that changed their attitude. About watering down, if it's correct form, then I think that Thais don't mind. It's when some karate guy posing as a muaythai instructor with a different form that irks Thais. BTW I posted reply yesterday, but there was a hang up in the internet.

[sportmuaythai]

SPORTMUAYTHAI, did you think I was just guessing here from my computer room in Canada? Im in Bangkok sitting in a room with 5 Thai people RIGHT NOW. heh. They say you're as informed as the next Thai person because most people have no idea where the word FIE came from. Even you admitted that since you say you are not sure either. The concensus amongst most Thais is it comes from the english word fire. I have no idea why you are talking about the origins of fire and mentioning Julius Ceasar though.....

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD Thailand

Dear Domian, I mentioned Julius Caesar to point out that the English didn't know how to use fire before they were invaded by Romans. I know for certain that Thai word fie doesn't come from the word fire. Did you know that "shampoo" wasn't originally an English word? BTW how educated are the Thais you associate with? We don't simply call the trafic lights fie daeng. It's sanyaan fie kiew fie daeng. If your Thai friends insist that they are called just fie daeng, then it's because they were brought up where Thai language is not properly spoken.

Many Thai camps do use the word tennuh to refer to the trainer and Ajarn for the head instructor that doesnt usually actually hold pads but teaches verbally. In Tae Kwon Do they have been known to use the word coat to refer to coach.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD Thailand

This is why I requested you not to use example of Thai language. You are encouraging wrong use of the word Ajarn. Please refer to my previous post on this thread. It's kru muay and not Ajarn muay, despite what the Thais you mingle with say. Cockney may be English, but proper spoken English is not cockney. It's Oxford English.

[Damian Mavis]

2 things.

JULES, I owe you an apology, TENNUH IS A THAI WORD. It is the english word trainer of course but it is in fact widely used now as a Thai word pronounced TenNUH and like MANY modern Thai words it came from english but is now thought of as Thai. Many Thai camps do use the word tennuh to refer to the trainer and Ajarn for the head instructor that doesnt usually actually hold pads but teaches verbally. In Tae Kwon Do they have been known to use the word coat to refer to coach.

SPORTMUAYTHAI, did you think I was just guessing here from my computer room in Canada? Im in Bangkok sitting in a room with 5 Thai people RIGHT NOW. heh. They say you're as informed as the next Thai person because most people have no idea where the word FIE came from. Even you admitted that since you say you are not sure either. The concensus amongst most Thais is it comes from the english word fire. I have no idea why you are talking about the origins of fire and mentioning Julius Ceasar though.....

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD Thailand

[jules]

jesus...
broken english is broken fucking english...and whoever is speaking it is going to have their own fucked up little variation.

ten-nuh, as in an attempt to say trainer, is NOT fucking thai. It is jumbled english. Please don't attempt to butcher the thai culture with your racist bullshit. It would be like me pretending to be chinese and replacing my r's with l's and vice versa. Not cool.

how is anything i say racist? i would love to hear your logic on this.

[3mptin3ss]

i have a question that is kinda off topic. but i was wondering what the thai people think about outsiders training in muay thai? muay thai has become very popular and people all over the world are learning muay thai. do the thais look down on this and think outsiders are watering down their art or are they happy that so many people outside thailand have taken notice of their art?

[sportmuaythai]

No. As previously said they have the words Kru and Ajarn .
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD Thailand

Damian, pls try not to use examples of Thai words, since you don't understand them well, and could cause further confusion. Incidentally, fire is not a word of English origin. I believe Julius Caesar first brought fire to England. I'm certain that Thais had the word fie before they had contact with the western world. In all likelyhood, it probably came from Indian word, Sanskrit may be?
Ajarn used to be a term reserved for teacher of higher learning such as a university lecturer. Then some one began to call ordinary teacher "Ajarn", to make it more respectable. We have kru muay, and not ajarn, witness wai kru, not wai ajarn. Some Thai even calls himself unabashfully grand master, lol.

[Damian Mavis]

thai english is unique to thailand. In that aspect you can consider it a "thai word" it doesn't matter if it's bad english. It's a word specific to a nation. Hey man i am glad you disagee with the nonsensic idea of "earning your shorts". It's a slippery slope to more nonsense imho.

No. In this case TENNUH is not a Thai word at all. As previously said they have the words Kru and Ajarn (not to mention no Thai person I asked knew what TENNUH was even when I told them it meant trainer). In your defense Jules, and to Garland Thailand DOES use bastardized english words to label some things and there is no other word for it. Unlike this case: the word for street light is fie dang and fire is fie, fie is a horrible pronunciation of FIRE, fie dang is red fire meaning the streetlight (even though its got green and yellow!) If you try to correct a Thai person to pronounce fie properly they will think you're stupid. To them Fie is pronounced FIE, most have no idea where the roots of the word came from. Another example is street corner. CunAH leo quah, at the CORNER turn right. They pronounce corner as cunAH and that is the Thai word for it as far as they are concerned and if you dont pronounce it cunAH they will NOT know what you are saying heh.

My point is there are MANY words in Asia that use english words and change them and they become a part of their culures language. (my experience is Thailand, and Japan where they use tons of english as Japanese words and there is no Japanese word for it or it's lost to history. I watch Japanese TV shows with my girfriend every single night and once I started listening closely I was able to pick out bastardized english ALL the time.)

Garland, actually if Chinese people in China are learning english as you described (I dont actually know) then they would not understand you unless you DID replace your r's with l's. In Thailand often an english teacher at the regular Thai schools is a Thai person that can't actually pronounce english properly and their students all learn to pronounce english improperly and if they hear proper pronunciation they will not make the connection and not understand you... until you copy their mispronunciation. Its not racist, its the way they were taught in school. I dated a chinsese Thai english teacher and I couldnt understand a damn thing she was saying heh..... I was thinking "and YOU teach english?!"

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD Thailand

[Garland]

thai english is unique to thailand.

jesus...
broken english is broken fucking english...and whoever is speaking it is going to have their own fucked up little variation.

ten-nuh, as in an attempt to say trainer, is NOT fucking thai. It is jumbled english. Please don't attempt to butcher the thai culture with your racist bullshit. It would be like me pretending to be chinese and replacing my r's with l's and vice versa. Not cool.

[Garland]

"tten nuh" is thai for coach/trainer iirc

I think you mean khru or ajarn.

[jules]

Jules did you read the previous posts in this thread? You are preaching to the choir man.... pay attention. I was simply answering your question, I wasn't defending shorts testings, I live, work and train in Thailand so know all about the way Thai camps run. There are no shorts tests here. Oh and I could have worn any shorts I wanted, I did not HAVE to buy from the school.

And dude.... I'm sitting here with my Japanese girlfriend who speaks perfect Thai due to her university schooling here and we couldnt for the life of us figure out what TENNUH was, neither could my Thai staff or friends.... omg I'm laughing so hard now. You learned that word from someone speaking bastardized english and you thought it was Thai, classic!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD Thailand

thai english is unique to thailand. In that aspect you can consider it a "thai word" it doesn't matter if it's bad english. It's a word specific to a nation. Hey man i am glad you disagee with the nonsensic idea of "earning your shorts". It's a slippery slope to more nonsense imho.

[Damian Mavis]

"tten nuh" is thai for coach/trainer iirc



yea but let me ask you this. Do you have to buy the shorts from your instructor or can you wear any thai shorts from anywhere? Look it's not a thai tradition nor is it connected to muay thai in anyway shape or form.

Jules did you read the previous posts in this thread? You are preaching to the choir man.... pay attention. I was simply answering your question, I wasn't defending shorts testings, I live, work and train in Thailand so know all about the way Thai camps run. There are no shorts tests here. Oh and I could have worn any shorts I wanted, I did not HAVE to buy from the school.

And dude.... I'm sitting here with my Japanese girlfriend who speaks perfect Thai due to her university schooling here and we couldnt for the life of us figure out what TENNUH was, neither could my Thai staff or friends.... omg I'm laughing so hard now. You learned that word from someone speaking bastardized english and you thought it was Thai, classic!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD Thailand