technique comparison

[fire cobra]

Yes, the technique is about stepping in towards the opponent. And you are right, many fighters in Thailand know this and you can see them using it.
I would like to get your attention to a simple fact first: how people see the same images with different understanding, just look at the replies.

fire cobra,
But what about Europe and the US etc, how often you see such a technique over here?

kyuss,
this images is a simple form of demonstrating a technique. All movements are reduced to a minimum trying to avoid confusion. The partner is present to show where/how to apply the technique, let's say he is a possible target in a possible (very simple) situation.
The idea is: you can learn how to fight.

Let's look to a different knee technique.

Watching just the technique it looks a kind of useless since you can not imagine what for it is, right? It's theoretical stuff, maybe, but for sure this movement looks strange and I never have it seen in Europe/US.
After the technique is shown you can see an application. It is just a very simple application, but it helps to understand in what kind of situation this technique is useful. Some how you go out of the way of the attack, but at the same time you bring your knee right into the attacker. Note also the movement of the attacker and the knee are opposed, so the more the attacker brings his weight/speed into his attack, the more he gets the knee. Many parts of this shown situation are very flexible, e.g. the knee could hit everywhere like the leg or head.

Could you imagine to apply such a knee strike, maybe in a special situation?

Sieh,

I see that technique(avoiding the knee) used in Europe especially by people trained in Thailand.

The second technique is seen in the rings of Thailand to,avoiding punches and countering with the knee,avoiding elbows and counter with the knee etc,even the old tricks of Hanuman hak daan are similar in concept as is noo tae rao.

Perhaps what you are not realising yet Sieh is that boxers fight so many times they soon realise what works against a equally good opponent and what doesnt,wide and showy moves will get you hurt,moves have to be swift and economical in order to land with power on a good opponent without being countered.

Nak Muay have found ways of making the weapons more efficient for their enviroment(the ring) its just evolution and has happened in every athletic endevour.

[Sieh Tanonchai]

Sieh,

I see that technique(avoiding the knee) used in Europe especially by people trained in Thailand.

The second technique is seen in the rings of Thailand to,avoiding punches and countering with the knee,avoiding elbows and counter with the knee etc,even the old tricks of Hanuman hak daan are similar in concept as is noo tae rao.

Absolutely.
The shown techniques are not to be understand as single, special or very secret techniques, this are basics. Many fighters use them, But I do not see them in the US neither Europe or on the standard youtube videos.

My point is just to show there are many techniques what have been forgotten. I would like to compare them to commonly used techniques. Possibly there is a reason why they are rare to see. The other option could be the technique is not known by all coaches/trainers etc.
Sure, you can not apply all techniques to all situations, but i think this is an different issue and this is not the point why some techniques are rare.

Perhaps what you are not realising yet Sieh is that boxers fight so many times they soon realise what works against a equally good opponent and what doesnt,wide and showy moves will get you hurt,moves have to be swift and economical in order to land with power on a good opponent without being countered.

Nak Muay have found ways of making the weapons more efficient for their enviroment(the ring) its just evolution and has happened in every athletic endevour.

I know very well about situations in fighting, about applying a technique and about not be able to act as you would like to. Trust me on that.
I am talking about have a big 'pool of techniques' available so you can choose between many techniques for each situation. The shown techniques are just 2 of them, suggested for special situations.
Could I make my point understandable?

What kind of technique you think I better to post to show what I am talking about (e..g. a rare one, a common one, a tricky one)?

thanks
Sieh

[fire cobra]

Absolutely.
The shown techniques are not to be understand as single, special or very secret techniques, this are basics. Many fighters use them, But I do not see them in the US neither Europe or on the standard youtube videos.

My point is just to show there are many techniques what have been forgotten. I would like to compare them to commonly used techniques. Possibly there is a reason why they are rare to see. The other option could be the technique is not known by all coaches/trainers etc.
Sure, you can not apply all techniques to all situations, but i think this is an different issue and this is not the point why some techniques are rare.


I know very well about situations in fighting, about applying a technique and about not be able to act as you would like to. Trust me on that.
I am talking about have a big 'pool of techniques' available so you can choose between many techniques for each situation. The shown techniques are just 2 of them, suggested for special situations.
Could I make my point understandable?

What kind of technique you think I better to post to show what I am talking about (e..g. a rare one, a common one, a tricky one)?

thanks
Sieh

Ok bro I trust you on that,mind you Im not saying Im any great expert! I know my place in things.

I agree that its good to have a pool of techniques,especially as Im getting older,its more fun that way and less hard work.

I know a lot of Nak Muay that only work on 1 or 2 techniques for example lets say a long knee,they get so strong at doing it they can defend and walk through lesser techniques to get theirs home,so there is different ways of lookin at the game would you agree Sieh?.

As for what type of technique to show Im not sure however Id prefer it if you used a example from other sources than what you are using at the moment just for the sake of variety in performance.

Do you have any knowledge of Muay Korat or Muay Lopburi etc? examples from those methods would make for interesting discussion.

[Hardball]

Well first off what is the attacker doing his own style?its not muay thai. Look at the clinch position, his two hands are low on the neck, his knee is not generating anything, poor psoture, its poor technique on the attacker that the allows the other guy to make the move.

Those are Tae Kwon Do Uniforms.

[kyuss]

I tried reading through the threads a few times but all i am getting is that sieh believes he has something no one else has and he understands it as no else does but he writes nothing at all to support that or back it up and the vid clips are so bad, so poorly performed that i can only wince at every one that i watch.

Also as far as technique comparison, when i clearly showed that the techniques are poorly demonstrated with incorrect position without any balance or power, he dismisses that and just moves on. The core is that it not going to work with specific tools in play. Muay thai was created from the bigger pool and it polished and worked on techs until they worked the way they do. You can have the biggest pool of techs and literally be ko'd cold in a blind second because none can be applied in real time as we see here.

Lastly you make a very fatal and poor statement saying YOU dont see these techniques in the US or euorpe, where have you been and who have you trained with in the US. I think your statements are starting to have holes as big as swiss cheese> at some point in your posts, reality has to make an appearance, dont you think?

I have been to thailand a couple of times and i dont have that long a history of training and fighting but i have trained and have been in real fights in real time which informs you about how things work under a certain pressure.

What sieh is doing is like the people who just memorize endless forms and moves going for a huge index but not understanding at all the how and why and not detecting any weakness since there is no pressure testing. As we saw in the other tread with the guys sparring with gloves on it was useless nonsense of laughable quality to anyone with any type of muay thai, boxing or mma sport training.

I dont see any value to the thread outside of it being "the Sieh show". Its pretty sad that in 2009 we still have posts with guys trying to show you what you can easily learn in thailand with the many masters who continue to teach this stuff, its not lost and its certainly taught alot better.

[Sieh Tanonchai]

I tried reading through the threads a few times but all i am getting is that sieh believes he has something no one else has and he understands it as no else does but he writes nothing at all to support that or back it up and the vid clips are so bad, so poorly performed that i can only wince at every one that i watch.

Thanks for your honest answer, Kyuss.
I do not believe I show something no one else has. As you can see the images are older and I simply copied it. It is based on older knowledge, so for sure this is not unique. I just bring it up as examples back in our mind, nothing else.
I do not intend to convince anybody my one is the best. no way. I want to show, options, possibilities, further stuff maybe, maybe not. Everyone decides for his own, not for me, not for you, not for anyone else.
The quality of the clips aren't good, but this got nothing to do with its content.
The content is a slow and demonstrating show of movements, just like the other slow one you are referring to down in this quote.

Also as far as technique comparison, when i clearly showed that the techniques are poorly demonstrated with incorrect position without any balance or power, he dismisses that and just moves on. The core is that it not going to work with specific tools in play. Muay thai was created from the bigger pool and it polished and worked on techs until they worked the way they do. You can have the biggest pool of techs and literally be ko'd cold in a blind second because none can be applied in real time as we see here.

I did not dismiss it, my way of answering was just a little different. I tried to explain what for are these clips. Sure you are right, the shown situations are not real and theoretical, this is why they were made. example: Can you learn how to play guitar by watching Jimmy Hendrix? No way, you need a slow introduction to rhythm and harmony at least. The same about fighting, you learn how to fight if you start slowly, you don't learn fighting by getting hit on your nose. You could learn how to deal with this kind of situation, but it isn't a way to learn how to fight. This is the reason why the clips you saw are very slow and 'unrealistic', they are supposed to be.
You are completely right, just knowing techniques but not having experience in real fight time would not help. But this is a different issue and could be discussed at a later time, maybe in a different thread even.
By the way the other way around is the same story, having experience but no techniques ( or just a few) limits you as well, isn't it? Specially if meeting a fighter with a pool of techniques and experience.

Lastly you make a very fatal and poor statement saying YOU dont see these techniques in the US or euorpe, where have you been and who have you trained with in the US. I think your statements are starting to have holes as big as swiss cheese> at some point in your posts, reality has to make an appearance, dont you think?

What you expect me to do, lying? I really don't see them, some I see sometimes, but many never.
Maybe I need to explain a little more. I distinguish all kind of techniques by weapon, target and movement (at least). So if you hit with your knee and once you lean your body back and the other time you lean the body to the side, I consider it 2 techniques. Each time you change important principles. Understanding them enables you to find a suitable (re)action for each situation. Sure you see many similar techniques, but there are important differences you just recognize knowing a pool of techniques. Otherwise it would just be "another knee strike".
I am in this forum for nice talking and exchange of information. I do not understand what you expect me to do?

What sieh is doing is like the people who just memorize endless forms and moves going for a huge index but not understanding at all the how and why and not detecting any weakness since there is no pressure testing. As we saw in the other tread with the guys sparring with gloves on it was useless nonsense of laughable quality to anyone with any type of muay thai, boxing or mma sport training.

This is the part I referred to a little above. This shown boxing is a stage to learn how to box, it is not the final and realtime stage. This step is made to learn how to apply techniques, for attacking and defending. After you manage this step you move forward and speed up with harder hits etc until you reach 'reality'. If you start in realtime speed and with real power you won't learn how to fight, you learn something like 'how to survive' or 'how to deal with (e.g. pain)' or 'managing be beaten up' etc. But these clips demonstrate a way to become a educated fighter. This is called 'learn how to fight'.

I dont see any value to the thread outside of it being "the Sieh show". Its pretty sad that in 2009 we still have posts with guys trying to show you what you can easily learn in thailand with the many masters who continue to teach this stuff, its not lost and its certainly taught alot better.

Nice, "the Sieh show". good one. My intention is not to give a show. I never talk this way neither I try to shine putting others down, no. I am not this kind. I simply share parts of what I know and would like others to share parts of what they know, nothing else. At the end everybody decides for himself anyway if he enriches himself with knowledge or if he denies bullsh.., isn't it?
But how you want to choose or even think about differences, if you haven't seen them?
I llike to see people doing this different ways, I learn a lot. Learning by adapting and learning by denying since I doublecheck the new information.

Can you see my point?

[kyuss]

Sieh
You seem to miss the point of every conversation and resort back to your endless defenses and complications of the issues.

You havent shown people on here obviously anything special or anything new. I went back and read every post of yours.

You are trying to say to know something special, something beyond what everyone on here knows but you seem to be deluding yourself.

1. Who are you? 2. how many years have you trained in this stuff? 3. Have you trained in thailand? 4. who is your teacher? 5. what is your teachers background? 6.how much research have you done into what you learned to see if it is indeed authentic and not made up or recreated? this might add to the validty of your posts since you seem to believe you are an Authority with some special knowledge. Also point me to a site that shows any student of your school competing and using even one technique in a fight (sport or otherwise) with full intent.

The quality of the clips are terrible and the content is missing which means they are useless as training tools or examples and the clips are everywhere on youtube, endlessly promoting that style and trying to gain notoriety or whatever. Why would a teacher put them on the internet other than to demonstrate his style and try to sell it? Who would study such garbage? You present the style in its best light not the worst which leads me to believe that the style is taught that way and its terrible at best. IF YOU HAVE TO MAKE EXCUSES for everything then there is a reason for that.

Again i state to you. You dont grab people on the neck poorly like that, the body positions whether going slow or fast are bad. Theres no senstivity or awareness. If i went slow like that i would Be even more EXACT and accurate! So your defenses are meaningless or rendered foolish. Theres no defense for it. The clips of the students sparring look like two uneducated girls moving. Its horrible examples of fighting no less thai fighting or any fighting worth studying.

Yes, when you make a bold statement: THERE IS NO ONE IN AMERICA or EUROPE with these techniques I am saying to your face you are a liar and bullshit artist at best. What do you base that statement on? Where have trained in america, what states, what places? If you can state where you went to look, who you trained with in America or europe and where you went to research that. I will retract that statement. I am all about honesty and if I am wrong I will retract that statement. BUT you have to clearly state where you trained in america and europe and it should be a sizeable number since you are covering two continents.

I have traveled and trained and i keep an open mind as do alot of people on here which is why i gravitated to here to debate and discuss. I think when bullshit is sensed it is pounced on thats the new era here in the US, the advent of MMA, has produced a no bullshit approach. It seems you want to SPREAD your gospel as truth but it seems you are more than likely lost in your own egotistical delusion.

its seems you want to promote yourself and your system or whatever but you bring nothing to the table, you refuse to answer questions that have brought up over and over again from others on this site as well as myself.

On the next post, just answer the questions because you talk like you are some expert but there is nothing "expert" coming through. You are the one criticizing and making blanket statements then dont want to answer the questions. Try to re-read your words and see how they are coming through.

Bottom line is you know nothing special and I would certainly advise you to refrain from blanket statements that there is no one in america or europe who knows until you travel and train then report on your findings.

My advice is lay off all the stupid talk about being the only one with these techs or nobody knows them nonsense and clearly answer who are and who your teacher is and where the techs came from. Present what you want but dont expect any fanfare for the stuff since its all hollow and empty. Speaking in an authoritative stance, for example like you did, if i said i haven't seen any level of old muay thai at all in all of europe, you would expect me to back it up by saying I trained with such and such and i trained with x amount of schools and teachers which has formed my opinion. An another problem as we have seen with alot of others is that they THINK they have the true material but its not the case at all. So your material will have to stand up to that rigorous test and so far it has failed miserably on all levels.

I see YOUR point but do you see MINE???????

[the tick]

I see YOUR point but do you see MINE???????

No he doesn't. Other Pahuyuti's never seem to be able to see the points of others either and like to reply with endless posts who nobody reads.

[Sieh Tanonchai]

No he doesn't. Other Pahuyuti's never seem to be able to see the points of others either and like to reply with endless posts who nobody reads.

tick,
i understand, everybody is the some, is it, ticki'boy? ok, I will reduce my posts, maybe I better write just like you: "I do not agree. Don't believe any." What a great post.
Why is your name tick anyway, is it because you are ticked, you get ticked, you are a tick?
;-)

Sieh
...
I see YOUR point but do you see MINE???????

Kyuss,

there are some people understanding what I say, and others don't. That;s life, isn't it? In life you usually stay with folks who are just like you, "tell me with whom you are and I tell you who you are", you know this one.
A forum is different. Here are all kind of people and these people by nature have different points of view, but you just realize it the moment you talk to them.

I am not special, again, I am really not.
Maybe I think different than you or anybody else about some things, ok, and maybe you or me know something the other one don't know, I guess so. But where is the problem? Do you think you know the same things as all users here and the other way around? This would make you a clone of somebody.

I am somebody who does not get rip of MT.
I trained several years and I plan to train for another 30 years.
Since I am not living in the same place as my teacher I train alone and in several gyms since many years, depending where I am.
Instead of checking documents etc I e.g. check if the shown technique makes sense. That's the way I learned to judge. How do you do your checks, believing?
As I said I am no authority and I do not want neither pretend to be one.
Do you really think if someone really knows how to fight he necessarily needs to fight in a ring? To prove anybody? Do you really think who wins a fight in the ring is the better one? A champ is the best of the world? Don't give me this sh.., no way there is still anybody heading this direction.

The clips are on youtube giving anybody the option to watch. I use them to learn and when I practice in a gym (sparring) I check how it works. And I am not the only one. But sure, I know more than 80% quit within the first 5 years. This way is not an easy way. If you don't like them, don't watch them, that's fine for me.
Why do you think I excuse for anything??? I am not aware of anything to do so.

As I said "But I do not see them in the US neither Europe or on the standard youtube videos." I said 'I', not everybody, so what is the problem? If you can see them, fine, good for you. I would appreciate if you can link me some clips (with minutes) so I can be convinced. If you don't, fine as well. But I would think you did not find them either.
I did not say nobody since there are some using these techniques etc. Please do not confuse this general statement with a scientific report.

Want do you want, I shall post gym's where they do not use these techniques? Are you kidding? How shall I know? I could tell you who did not use them in a fight with me, I would have to add my name as well quite often since I don't use them all the time, nobody does. What do you expect by this list? I really don't get it, better think over.

You are the one criticizing and making blanket statements then dont want to answer the questions.

I have a sense of humor, but this is just poor.
Once again: Show me the many parts where I criticized, where I make blanket statements (whatever this means) and where I did not try to answer (maybe the answers are not the way you would like to hear it!?!?)

[the tick]

tick,
i understand, everybody is the some, is it, ticki'boy? ok, I will reduce my posts, maybe I better write just like you: "I do not agree. Don't believe any." What a great post.
Why is your name tick anyway, is it because you are ticked, you get ticked, you are a tick?

Every Pahuyuti is, it seems. Endless, boring posts. Lecturing and preaching like a bunch of Jehova witnesses.
I don't mind though. You guys are so good at pissing other people off while remaining blissfully ingnorant to that. It's quite entertaining.

[Sieh Tanonchai]

I see YOUR point but do you see MINE???????

Good question, let me summarize and you tell me what's wrong, ok?
- you think I want to be an expert
- you think I want to have secret techniques etc
- you think I one more coming here and telling everyone the truth.
- name's are important for you
- documents are important to you
- you think I gave a blanket statement about Europe and US and you think this would be important
- you think I claim to know the truth
- You will test, a rigorous test, but you didn't.
- you think the technique posted are useless since the way of demonstrating is wrong
- you think the techniques do not work anyway, so no need to counter-post techniques

Did I understand you well? If not, what part did I misunderstand?

[Sieh Tanonchai]

I nearly forgot:
Please anyone post a technique to show a difference to anything,
or post a technique to show a difference to the above,
or post a technique to explain at what situation you could apply this technique
or post a technique to 'prove' anything
etc

If I just post and everybody complains but none can do better or is afraid of something the thread becomes one sided.

Sieh

[george stando]

What a joke.

[kyuss]

Double posting, computer error.

[kyuss]

Nobody can piss me off at all. I remain clear minded about the issues at hand and I will not allow them to be twisted. The cult like post earlier is very accurate. When someone "believes" they have been given a certain truth, they can't believe or accept that it be a false truth or not the total truth.

I asked Sieh specific questions about his background, the validity of the lineage and his teacher, so we can look into that because something is not right here as picked up on by several others. How does one do their checks? They go out and train, they research the stuff they are learning, they go to the well that is thailand to learn, they put their knowledge to the test by fighting or sparring, they teach others maybe and develop instructors or fighters which is process onto itself...learning is a multi-faceted process that is on going and never ending. research is a clear, scientific process.

It seems you just invaded this forum to disrupt, argue and try to prove a point and like a little child when you couldnt have your way, you screamed, cried and waved your rattle like a spoiled brat. Funny you call out the tick for not using his real name but why arent you using your real name....weird how you always try to spin back things only to have them explode in your face.

Re read your posts, there is a concise answer from many people besides myself to your antics and endless tirades. There is an intelligence and a martial experience level that might be too much for you to handle on this forum. If you listen to some of the people on here you actually might learn something. I read through many posts here and there is much knowledge being exchanged in short bursts and some in long bursts.

There are good conversations on various old style stuff, old footage, and such that seems to be positive and has yielded positive discussion. Things seem to turn negative when one makes an assumption that they are the holy grail source of knowledge yet produces nothing to back it up as it seemed has happened before with others. Sieh we have asked you to back up your words with something, you show endless you tube videos which are terrible examples of martial art or skill or knowledge but you say its concise and real, you dont reveal who you are, your training years, experience, lineage, teacher and any proof that you trained at all or your teacher is valid, this all comes up because you are posting material that many feel is not valid or real or comes from an authentic line or lineage, if you can simply provide the information then people can check for themselves do the research and a conversation can continue along those lines.

We have seen "supposed systems" pop up in thailand with a full spectrum of hundreds of techniques but yet when you study the real authentic systems like chaiya, khorat, lopburi, and others they are set up with specific techniques within their system. They have the appropriate number for their system and they dont need millions, they have what they need as a set system. They have lineage and teachers that are clearly documented. Are you saying they are less valid because they have less than the sum techniques of your "supposed authentic system", that your system is more "old, pure,authentic,unique" or because you recognize one or two techs that are the same from their system that yours is suddenly valid?

If you dont like being questioned or dont like having to answer about your backround and such then you should refrain from making comments as you have made and simply have a conversation as a practitioner who wants to share techniques you feel are valid but others might feel are garbage. Then you can accept them and they will accept your point of view. Other than that I cant provide much more.

Hopefully you will answer the questions i asked honestly without any filler of fanfare and we can have a discussion about that and the techniques and how those techniques might be colored or misinterperted by your less than stelllar backround and training.