Spin kicks useful or useless?

[Nit]

Originally posted by M@T

BUT, you lose power doing this. No way is a Mawashigeri/roundhouse from a Shotokan fighter using this technique going to be as powerful as Thai Roundhouse kick with full follow through.

I completly agree, if you lunge all your body weight and really geat some acceleration into it you can smash things to bits...

Karate is more the technique of defense rather than attack, MT is the opposite (I think)

I think the main difference is that Karate is trying to do something with the minimal effort and use of power, effectiveness to maximise the opponents weaknesses agaisnt them.

With MT I think they just want to out and out kill you

I have been show though that the power of the kick is not necessarily the best thing, its the speed and the deployment of the impact...

I will dig out the correct information when I get home, but it goes along the lines of theory of relativity (possibly) where everything has an equal and opposite reaction...

when you kick with speed you increase your kinetic energy, then on contact you tense and give it some erm inertial energy and then you withdraw before the reaction flows back into your foot / hand. that way you transport the energy into the object and you don't get it back (!).

We practise the practicalities of this concept (even though I am so poor at articulating it) where we first kick as hard as we can at a person with impact pad, they go 'ouf' and move a bit, then fully relaxed we do the same going for speed, they go 'wee' and fall over / learn to fly.

I will get a better explanation as I am starting to sound like a ninny now... :P

[jules]

Sage,
But not all spin kicks are flashy. Actually the middle spin kick to the stomach is pretty effective IMHO.

[Nit]

Originally posted by fullcircle
A well placed and well executed spinning back kick to the mid section can end a fight in a hurry.

heh, my friend in a tourney once did something like that... went to touch mitts at teh start and the guy started swinging, so he retreated, turned and back kicked... only under the pressure he didn't lift his leg high enough That other guys eyes nearly popped out and he crumpled to the floor as everyone in the hall went *BOOOooooommmmm......* and mens eyes started to water

[fullcircle]

Ouch! Illegal but effective!

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by jules
Sage,
But not all spin kicks are flashy. Actually the middle spin kick to the stomach is pretty effective IMHO.

Any kick is effective if it's pulled off... The funny thing about spin kicks is that they're not as powerful as everyone seems to credit them. During the spin, you're slightly off balance and the power doesn't really push foward... It's really moving downwards. Besides, there's no torque behind the kick since you're on the ball of your standing feet.

Kicks like the spin kick are neutralized by simply stepping towards the kicker. Then there's no power at all. However, the best any spin kick does is knock you back... I've only witnessed one spin kick to the head that laid someone out.

[retired]

The spinning kick is just like any other kick....if your crap at it then it's useless & dont bother.....but if you can then get ready to duck!!!

[Damian Mavis]

You are so wrong about spin kicks Great Sage heh. They are as powerful as people think otherwise there would be absolutely no point in using them. They are riskier than a straight kick or round kick but the risk is worth it for the added power.

I don't think you understand the physics behind the different spin kicks. For a turning sidekick/backkick the power is ALL going straight into the gut /ribs of the opponent. You say there is no torque... this kick is loaded with torque! Wow, how do I explain this.... this kick is the most powerful technique I have, it is hard to describe technique, it's much much easier for me to hand you a pad and blast away into your gut to give you an idea.

I will try: spinning as fast as you can on your lead leg you generate power by throwing your head, shoulder and hips into the kick. Knee is chambered up and let loose with shattering impact NOT pushing impact. To get shattering power you try to strike and retract your leg as quickly as you can as opposed to laying into the kick and leaving it there a bit longer to send them flying. Sending them flying is fun but ineffective. Your support leg can be on the ball of it's foot but I do this kick with my toes pointed backwards pushing off the floor for more power with the foot almost flat on the ground. I bring my power from the floor, up my leg, into my hips and into my striking leg.

If you can step into a spin kick he is kicking too slow and deserves it. I actually only use this kick in a combo while they are reeling back or as a counter like a teep while my opponent is doing round kick..... well actually during my fight in Thailand I used it on it's own but my opponent was tired and susceptible to just about anything probably at that point and this kick finished the fight. My foot went up under his ribs and deep inside his body, it was one of the more disgusting feelings I've had hitting someone as hard as I could, he lay there with his legs twitching for about 10 minutes.

I will be putting the video of that up on my website sometime later this month as soon as my computer savvy friend helps me out.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[JP Prideaux]

Originally posted by Bau13
was gonna say there are some guys who use them really well...Francisco Filho for example... my goodness.. that spinning back kick he does to the body.... it K.O's people for crying out loud!

Yeah... the guy he KOed with that spin kick was Duane Van der Merwe (Vander Merwe as the Japanese call him).

Duane and I were at the same gym (together with MIke Bernardo and Andrew Thompson and Jan the Giant). Duane is a boxer who always had trouble with kicks - he had Francisco on the run in that fight... and i guess that backspin kick was the last thing he expected.

ah well. Pity he doesnt fight no more.

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis
You are so wrong about spin kicks Great Sage heh. They are as powerful as people think otherwise there would be absolutely no point in using them. They are riskier than a straight kick or round kick but the risk is worth it for the added power.

I don't think you understand the physics behind the different spin kicks. For a turning sidekick/backkick the power is ALL going straight into the gut /ribs of the opponent. You say there is no torque... this kick is loaded with torque! Wow, how do I explain this.... this kick is the most powerful technique I have, it is hard to describe technique, it's much much easier for me to hand you a pad and blast away into your gut to give you an idea.

I’m under the impression that you think I’m just making this up as I go along. I’m well aware of different kicking methods and techniques. I’ve done the kickboxing thing along with Muay Thai and I’ve probably been hit with every variety of kicks. Again, I don’t doubt that you may have a powerful spin kick. With enough training and emphasis, select techniques can be made to work. But the fact remains that spin kicks in general lackpower and probability.

As I mentioned before, there’s not much torque. The power of spin kicks comes from the spinning motion. However, you don’t necessarily push off like most kicks and you are more off balance than if you were simply facing the target. That makes for a not so powerful kick.

HERE’S AN EXPERIMENT: Take a baseball bat in hand. Swing at a heavy bag as you would in baseball. That represents the mechanics of a Muay Thai kick. Now, spin around like you’re peforming a spin kick and poke at the bag like you would a spin kick. Or, better yet, spin and whack the bag with a continuous motion. You WILL notice that the first motion has the most power with the least amount of fuss. The reason is quite simple. The Roundhouse technique utitlizes better mechanics based on motion.

[Damian Mavis]

Yes I did think you were making it up as you go along, you'll forgive me as that is the kind of thing I'm used to from people that do not train in certain techniques. It is easier to discount techniques you havent trained as it makes people feel like they are not missing out on anything and gives an overall boost to ego and a feeling of superiority! If that is not you I totally accept that and think that's great.

However you are wrong about the baseball bat analogy. If I can generate more power from a bat with a spin then so can everyone else and I know I can. It's slower to reach the target but has craploads more power. What about shotput? Try throwing the shotput as far as you can in the olympics WITHOUT spinning and you just lost.

And you are not supposed to be off balance when you do a spin kick, if you are it means you are not doing it very well at all.

I wish I could get you to hold pads for some of the monsters I have held for and you would instantly realise the power involved in spinning techniques. It is the only way, talking about it will never prove anything to you.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[MuayThaiFighter]

Originally posted by Great Sage


Any kick is effective if it's pulled off... The funny thing about spin kicks is that they're not as powerful as everyone seems to credit them. During the spin, you're slightly off balance and the power doesn't really push foward... It's really moving downwards. Besides, there's no torque behind the kick since you're on the ball of your standing feet.

Kicks like the spin kick are neutralized by simply stepping towards the kicker. Then there's no power at all. However, the best any spin kick does is knock you back... I've only witnessed one spin kick to the head that laid someone out.

I agree 100% everyone seems to think they are the best type of kicks and very effective when infact they aren't,maybe they are against someone not trained in martial arts at all,but even then I doubt it.

[MuayThaiFighter]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis
Yes I did think you were making it up as you go along, you'll forgive me as that is the kind of thing I'm used to from people that do not train in certain techniques. It is easier to discount techniques you havent trained as it makes people feel like they are not missing out on anything and gives an overall boost to ego and a feeling of superiority! If that is not you I totally accept that and think that's great.

However you are wrong about the baseball bat analogy. If I can generate more power from a bat with a spin then so can everyone else and I know I can. It's slower to reach the target but has craploads more power. What about shotput? Try throwing the shotput as far as you can in the olympics WITHOUT spinning and you just lost.

And you are not supposed to be off balance when you do a spin kick, if you are it means you are not doing it very well at all.

I wish I could get you to hold pads for some of the monsters I have held for and you would instantly realise the power involved in spinning techniques. It is the only way, talking about it will never prove anything to you.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

No offense Damain but you make no sense,you said "it is slower but has craploads more power"that's funny in my experience of martial arts I always thought with speed comes power,so if the spin bat analogy reaches target slower then how can it have more power then a straight swing?

For this same reason it sounds illogical to say that a spinning kick can be more or just as powerful as a straight to target kick.

Personally I think it makes more sense to say a MuayThai round house shin kick would be alot faster then a TKD spin kick,since it takes less time to reach target and therefore more powerful.Besides it hurts more to get hit by shins then top of foot on top of that.

[Thai Bri]

Maybe he means that it is slow because, the leg has so far to travel, that it takes a comparitively long time to hit home. Whereas a lead teep is fast because it travels less than half the distance?

But both techniques actually travel at about the same speed?

[IPON]

Muay thai - unfortunately there are alot of people that can generate great speed with little power (or not as much as they should have).

I think Damian just meant that becuase you have to spin, the time it will take to spin and release will be longer than standing face to face giving (for example) a lower leg kick (by 1-2sec). But I agree the power of a spining kick is there if you are fast and accurate, in the right situation it can certainly end the fight if you are good with it (of course if you miss brick walls are pretty solid-ouch). It would not be a 1st or 2nd move for me becuase of the accuracy...but in the right situation I might

[Damian Mavis]

Muaythaifighter... you misquoted me. I didn't say it was slower but had more power, I said it was slower TO REACH THE TARGET but has more power. Big difference. The spin kick is still FAST but it will take a fraction of a second longer to reach it's target then a jab punch or a teep kick for instance. The kick itself is still fast but it's like chambering a punch from way over your shoulder instead of from your jaw which will take longer... make sense?

Like IPON said.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD