Which grappling art should I do?

[kingoftheforest]

If you're in that situation then sorry but you're finished. Realistically there's no training to handle that. More effective policing would be a better bet. Actually I have rarely seen people attack like that except during a riot in Douala once and when I was kicked unconscious once stupidly trying to stop my motorcycle being stolen by a gang of street punks.

I'm sorry to see that you would give up on yourself so quickly and dismiss the fact that protecting yourself is even possible. it shows lack of heart, which would explain why you prefer an fighting environment with rules.

But in the real world there are no rules. Hope is just another word for desperation. Being prepared and considering that things like this are possible is not paranoia (I'm not saying that this is what you meant BTW) it's called being realistic and prepared.

[TTEscrima]

. No offense TTeskrima but have you ever been at gun or knife point?

More times than I can count, I'm a retired Navy Master at Arms, I've dealt with groups of drunk civilians fighting drunk soldiers, drunk soldiers fighting college kids, drunk soldiers fighting each other, hell I've been a drunken sailor fighting a group of Marines, sailors with knives who were stabbing other sailors shipboard when I arrived and they turned on me and armed people fighting with me from a half dozen countries over a 20 year span. In none of those cases would BJJ or wrestling have done anything but gotten me killed.

[TTEscrima]

I'm sorry to see that you would give up on yourself so quickly and dismiss the fact that protecting yourself is even possible. it shows lack of heart, which would explain why you prefer an fighting environment with rules.

Well said my friend. See my sigline.

Some people prefer play fighting, and some go so far as to mistake it for the real thing, or even worse, self defense.

[USArmyBJJ]

You don't know your right. And instead of adding as much to your tool box to make sure you know you would just assume that it's impossible.

If you look at my profile, you'll notice that I train in boxing and Muay Thai (and Tae Kwon Do when I was a kid). You'll also notice that, on several occasions now, I've noted that I don't really study martial arts for self-defense, so have no need to study RBSD to "add to my toolbox." The original poster also said that he was looking to add grappling to his toolbox. What are you talking about exactly?

And I love the RBSD cop out that everyone who practices it is paranoid. if I were as paranoid as you people seem to think all RBSD people are I'd never leave the house. Which means I'd be able to post as much as you non-RBSD people do.

You don't think there's any paranoia at all in assuming that all, or even most, fights on the street end up with multiple people and weapons, etc? Come on, that's a bit paranoid. Either way, the paranoia I was mostly referring to is this weird paranoia that everyone who expresses any skepticism about RBSD is attacking you personally. It's a bit strange. But it does make the discussion more fun to participate in.

And EVERY and I mean EVERY martial art teaches you unarmed combat BEFORE armed. because if you can't use the weapons nature gave you WTF makes you think you can use extra crap added to those.

This reasoning is pretty bad....We have weapons because they make it easier to hurt or kill another. Are you arguing that you have to learn how to punch before you can learn how to shoot? As someone who has expressed a strong preference for military combatives, do you honestly think that soldiers are taught hand-to-hand before they're taught on their rifles? (I can tell you from first hand experience that that is incorrect) I might be misunderstanding what you're trying to say.

obviously the first word in your posts shows how much you ignore what was said to you. I specifically said RUNNING there Forest Gump was not an option yet your first word is Running.

Um, actually. The first sentence in your post was, "If you are saying here that both are ineffective that what is an effective defense," and I responded by saying, "Running." You asked a general question, and I gave you a general answer. It was only later in your post that you outlined some scenarios where, conveniently enough, running was not an option. Would you agree, or disagree, that running is a great option when faced by five knife-wielding attackers? Or, are you like a crazy Rambo guy that says, "I ain't got time to bleed," and charges full speed ahead?

If you can't keep up with the conversation how can you eve pretend it is a debate.

You might want to read your own posts before you post again so that you aren't just going off of your memory of what you said. That way, you won't get confused.

[USArmyBJJ]

You might want to not stick your nose in things you have no clue about.

You're right. Your medical issues are your's alone. But seriously....get that checked out.

[Junka]

I've worked for logging companies, mining companies and the UN in Darfur, the DRC, South Sudan, The Congo, the Central African Republic and Cameroon to name but a few. I have been in fights, though not many thank God. I have chased down a guy for my cell phone and I've argued with drunk African's wearing uniforms and carrying guns, at night and alone. I know a thing a two about living in areas outside of the rules and I'll tell you now: What wins is the ability to have a calm steady voice even though you're having an adrenaline rush and to assess your options with great care.

As to lack of heart, I stepped right between a gun and my best friend and used my best French (In Cameroon) to defuse a situation between him and three cops he'd gotten into a situation with by refusing to pay bribes. If it wasn't for being VERY experienced in these environments I could easily have got us both shot or just froze.

I do live in the real world. A world away from shopping malls and dojos too.

[USArmyBJJ]

it shows lack of heart, which would explain why you prefer an fighting environment with rules.

And, of course, you prefer a fighting environment where there are no rules. A fighting environment where you take on five knife-wielding opponents every night! (sarcasm, of course) I mean, seriously, don't pretend like your training is done without rules. Of course there are rules when you train, in order to protect the students. Otherwise, there'd be a whole lot of stabbed kids running around...and I don't think the lawyers would like that too much...

[Junka]

More times than I can count, I'm a retired Navy Master at Arms, I've dealt with groups of drunk civilians fighting drunk soldiers, drunk soldiers fighting college kids, drunk soldiers fighting each other, hell I've been a drunken sailor fighting a group of Marines, sailors with knives who were stabbing other sailors shipboard when I arrived and they turned on me and armed people fighting with me from a half dozen countries over a 20 year span. In none of those cases would BJJ or wrestling have done anything but gotten me killed.

I've been in those situations too, except I'm not retired. I still have that problem from time to time. So tell me, how did you defend yourself against group of sailors trying to stab you?

BTW, my own skill sets aren't restricted to BJJ. However, anyone who took on more than one or two assailants is either a. superhuman or b. got lucky.

If you want proof then just go to see what prison officers do for a living. They can take a 3 man team against the hardest of criminals and secure them. Oh and that is an established fact BTW. Go and show them your multiple opponent defenses.

For my own part, the last time a I fought and lost against multiple opponents, I used punches until I got hit from God knows where and fell under a rein of blows. I've been there and I just don't believe there is an effective defense. All you can do is fight and see how it plays out sometimes.

[TTEscrima]

I've worked for logging companies, mining companies and the UN in Darfur, the DRC, South Sudan, The Congo, the Central African Republic and Cameroon to name but a few. I have been in fights, though not many thank God. I have chased down a guy for my cell phone and I've argued with drunk African's wearing uniforms and carrying guns, at night and alone. I know a thing a two about living in areas outside of the rules and I'll tell you now: What wins is the ability to have a calm steady voice even though you're having an adrenaline rush and to assess your options with great care.

As to lack of heart, I stepped right between a gun and my best friend and used my best French (In Cameroon) to defuse a situation between him and three cops he'd gotten into a situation with by refusing to pay bribes. If it wasn't for being VERY experienced in these environments I could easily have got us both shot or just froze.

I do live in the real world. A world away from shopping malls and dojos too.

So you've talked your way out of some encounters on the street good for you. Verbal judo works fine (and IS an essential skill) but it's completely worthless against a determined attacker. People intent on actually doing harm to you rarely let you talk you way out, if you can talk your way out it shouldn't be counted as an assault you survived, it's simply a conversation (perhaps heated) you survived that stayed rational. Is verbal judo SD? Sure it is, and it's far more relevant to SD than BJJ.

[kingoftheforest]

And, of course, you prefer a fighting environment where there are no rules. A fighting environment where you take on five knife-wielding opponents every night! (sarcasm, of course) I mean, seriously, don't pretend like your training is done without rules. Of course there are rules when you train, in order to protect the students. Otherwise, there'd be a whole lot of stabbed kids running around...and I don't think the lawyers would like that too much...

Here we have more assumptions from you. i gave you a scenario that didn't fit into your little bubble of what you think should happen in a real fight and want to take it and bend it to some insane extreme. Your predecessor did the same thing and it made him look just as silly.

Running is very seldom an option when attack on the street. if your immediate response is to show an attacker your back you need some learnin' son.

No I don't feel I'm Rambo, but I'm also not going to just give up because the odds are against me. If a man in Africa can pull out a leopards tongue when he is unarmed and attack and get away with some stitches, I'm going to give it my best to fight back.


I am aware that the US military teaches guns before hand to hand. Maybe that's why an Afghani grandma choked out a Marine. We are a gun culture and we teach our military that if you have a bigger gun you'll win. that's why we have gotten our asses kicked in the last few altercation around the world.


Tactics planning and knowing your enemy and what you can and can't do win you fights, not crying this shit doesn't work and balling up on the floor, or making rules and rings to make it "fair".


And once again you are picking and choosing to attack wha people are saying to you and twisting context to fit your agenda.


Welcome back Brewer it's been dead without you here. I haven't had a good argument or a chance to make an ass out of somebody in awhile I'd almost say I missed you. But I really didn't.

[kingoftheforest]

And, of course, you prefer a fighting environment where there are no rules. A fighting environment where you take on five knife-wielding opponents every night! (sarcasm, of course) I mean, seriously, don't pretend like your training is done without rules. Of course there are rules when you train, in order to protect the students. Otherwise, there'd be a whole lot of stabbed kids running around...and I don't think the lawyers would like that too much...

No kids in the classes I help teach or train in. And yes I am an associate instructor in a RBSD school. No one under 18 kids don't need to know how to kill and maim.

The only reason a grown man should fight is if he is attacked by another grown man. Apparently the men you know are pretty harmless from your attitude and lack of resolve.


"Please don't stab me just take my wallet", isn't a SD move. neither is giving up. Least not where I'm from.

[TTEscrima]

I've been in those situations too, except I'm not retired. I still have that problem from time to time. So tell me, how did you defend yourself against group of sailors trying to stab you?

Hi Mikey, how many screenames are you going to join up with? Your habit of twisting words is a dead giveaway you need to be retrained. If it isn't you, then the next generation was as poorly trained as you were.

To answer your question when facing knives or any close range weapon I stayed moving (on my feet and avoided grappling) and struck at the hands, knees or head when they were within range. An asp strike or a kick to the kneecap is a pretty quick way to slow someone down.

If you want proof then just go to see what prison officers do for a living. They can take a 3 man team against the hardest of criminals and secure them. Oh and that is an established fact BTW. Go and show them your multiple opponent defenses.

Well next time they show up in my class or I run a seminar for the SRT guys I'll do that, oh wait I already do. BTW smartass they are bound by specific rules of engagement that the BG's are not and that's why it takes 3 men to WRESTLE/GRAPPLE one to the floor, not because its impossible for LEO's or prison guards to handle scumbags one on one.

Besides those mighty prisoners you seem to be so in awe of that require 3 or more guards with weapons and shields to defeat on a regular basis just so happen to be...HUMAN Dang dude way to blow yourself out of the water!! One guy punching and kicking is a handful for 3 armed guys trying to grapple him eh? Glad you noticed. Maybe you should have a talk with the other sports proponents and let 'em know since they're demanding "proof".

[Junka]

Verbal judo works fine (and IS an essential skill) but it's completely worthless against a determined attacker. People intent on actually doing harm to you rarely let you talk you way out

Agreed, and against one determined attacker, striking can work (I have used it effectively), grappling can work etc....

I'm just pointing out that having like I said, a lot more experience around guns and cutting weapons than most RBSD instructors do, my informed opinion is that nothing is going to disarm 3 people with guns unless they're morons of the highest order.

As to the practically of BJJ then it comes down to mixing. It's a proven grappling skill set, much like boxing is a proven punching skill set. If you wanted to be a well rounded fighter, you need several skill sets. Going to the ground isn't always a matter of choice, you could have been sucker punched or slipped on an icy side walk.

if you can talk your way out it shouldn't be counted as an assault you survived, it's simply a conversation (perhaps heated) you survived that stayed rational.

When I pushed my way in front of the gun I had no way of knowing how it would turn out TT. I was prepared at that point to go the distance (actually it wasn't a choice) but you would have had to be there to understand it. A conversation LOL

[Junka]

Hi Mikey, how many screenames are you going to join up with? Your habit of twisting words is a dead giveaway you need to be retrained. If it isn't you, then the next generation was as poorly trained as you were.

Nope. Wrong again Mr Internet warrior

[Junka]

BTW smartass they are bound by specific rules of engagement that the BG's are not and that's why it takes 3 men to WRESTLE/GRAPPLE one to the floor, not because its impossible for LEO's or prison guards to handle scumbags one on one.

You completely missed my point. I was saying that since even hardened criminals can't stop a 3 man team, it seems improbable you could.

I'm bored, this is way off topic.

Nite all.