Anti-Grappling

[kuk sool won]

Self defence doesn't always have to be physcial dearest, the best way not to get hit is to avoid the confrontation completely, that itself is self defence.

[Uke]

everyone sees what they wanna see. when i show up to the gym i see people training in a martial art, you see men humping eachother and mention " NO-gi Day" as if that day is special for you. "no-gi day" is your favorite isnt it? this is what got you off the most, men wearing less clothing. i dont think you are impressing anyone by projecting your insecurities on others with comments like that^ and not just once, but you keep repeating how bjj is sexual to you.

lol, yeah im the one carrying on a charade...





ive already mentioned many times on this forum that i have never been in a real fight since i started training, and have no problem admitting it. however, i have been able to successfully de escalate more than one situation that could have gotten violent and ive done my best to stay out of trouble since i started training.

and it is clear to me what your saying, which is you cant deal with how hot and horny participating in bjj makes you, and that no gi days are exeptionally erotic for you. even still, i didnt judge you for being in the closet.

as for sd(which isnt what you have been talking about at all), i already know that training in one range isnt enough. ive already realized the importance of gathering info from as many diff sources as possible, crosstraining, the awareness aspect, weapons and weapons training. i dont give a fck what style someone trains in, if they have anything to offer, anything that can better me as person and martial artist i am thankful for it, so piss off.

and btw, technically im pretty damn good at SD, since i have avoided trouble and de escalated a few situations that could have been violent. look at boarspear, he hung out at strip clubs and porno shops( lacking awareness) and had some guys break into his house and attack him while he was in the shower because of it. so mabye he aint the expert he says he really is in sd, he seems to hang around bad places and get in all kinds of trouble all the time. unlike him, i do my best keep away from seedy places were wack ass people congeregate and ive been fine so far

So basically, you're here to talk about things you've never done, and never experienced, with authority. You think the only difference between what you do and what self defense is lies in crosstraining in different ranges? Right there you offer more proof on your own that you're completely lost here in the SD forum. You have no business talking about self defense when you have no idea what it is. I didn't need you to validate anything by being honest. Your lack of knowledge and experience was more than just a little apparent by what you write. Its the same case with jubaji, except you've always been a bit more mature than her up until now.

I've never asked anyone to agree with what I do or what I write. It would have been fine if you just disagreed. But you had to be a little fag about it, and here we are. So make all your accusations. The fact that you write about fighting and self defense without doing it makes you a joke not worth telling.

Have fun with that

[EmptyneSs]

And you need to stop pretending that you're a martial artist. You go to the BJJ gym to dry hump other dudes on "No-gi" Day

everyone sees what they wanna see. when i show up to the gym i see people training in a martial art, you see men humping eachother and mention " NO-gi Day" as if that day is special for you. "no-gi day" is your favorite isnt it? this is what got you off the most, men wearing less clothing. i dont think you are impressing anyone by projecting your insecurities on others with comments like that^ and not just once, but you keep repeating how bjj is sexual to you.

No need to carry on the charade.

lol, yeah im the one carrying on a charade...

And its become very apparent that you've never had a real fight or anything resembling one except for BJJ matches. Otherwise what nearly everyone here is saying would be clear to you. But rather than read and learn, you instead opt to waste other people's time by writing post that amount to nothing.

ive already mentioned many times on this forum that i have never been in a real fight since i started training, and have no problem admitting it. however, i have been able to successfully de escalate more than one situation that could have gotten violent and ive done my best to stay out of trouble since i started training.

and it is clear to me what your saying, which is you cant deal with how hot and horny participating in bjj makes you, and that no gi days are exeptionally erotic for you. even still, i didnt judge you for being in the closet.

as for sd(which isnt what you have been talking about at all), i already know that training in one range isnt enough. ive already realized the importance of gathering info from as many diff sources as possible, crosstraining, the awareness aspect, weapons and weapons training. i dont give a fck what style someone trains in, if they have anything to offer, anything that can better me as person and martial artist i am thankful for it, so piss off.

and btw, technically im pretty damn good at SD, since i have avoided trouble and de escalated a few situations that could have been violent. look at boarspear, he hung out at strip clubs and porno shops( lacking awareness) and had some guys break into his house and attack him while he was in the shower because of it. so mabye he aint the expert he says he really is in sd, he seems to hang around bad places and get in all kinds of trouble all the time. unlike him, i do my best keep away from seedy places were wack ass people congeregate and ive been fine so far

[Uke]

http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/ny.txt

http://www.knifeforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB62&Number=192015&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Here's a pretty good discussion on the topic. I also confirmed by stopping in at the local NYPD precint.

And besides...you DON'T get random searched in NYC(unless you're carrying it in your backpack-in which case it's not really serving a SD purpose) and you won't "get caught" unless you do something dumb like bring it into a school w/metal detectors or a federal building.
Also, notice the part about it being specifically meant to be a weapon...so no fixed blades, get a tactical/utility folder less than 4" in blade length.

Honestly, the big issue based on the cases I've looked up is how you use lethal force. If you used a knife when you weren't justified that's when you'll really pay for it in court...ILLEGAL possession is merely a misdemeanor, assault/manslaughter/murder is a bit of a step up from that.

IPONS and bigred389 are correct. In NYC, you can carry blades that do not exceed 4". However, the law is and always has been up to an officers discretion on the street. They can lock you up for whatever they want, let alone just carrying a weapon. So while its legal to carry small folders in NYC, you can still get locked up for it. If you have a felony, you cannot carry weapons. But I think IPON's point was who wants the aggravation of spending the night in holding, or worse getting caught on Friday and being shipped to Rijkers? I personally chance it all the time, and I feel its worth the risk. What has messed alot of things up for us NY'ers was 9-11. Now many buildings have metal detectors and every government building has them. You have to stash your weapon every time you have business inside.

[Uke]

you need to stop pretending like this entire thread is anything other than the fact that you are afraid of being gay.

now stfu already.

And you need to stop pretending that you're a martial artist. You go to the BJJ gym to dry hump other dudes on "No-gi" Day. No need to carry on the charade. And its become very apparent that you've never had a real fight or anything resembling one except for BJJ matches. Otherwise what nearly everyone here is saying would be clear to you. But rather than read and learn, you instead opt to waste other people's time by writing post that amount to nothing.

Good luck with that

[EmptyneSs]

Unless you have trained with the knife, your skills aren't proficient. A standup fighter is not necessarily what you perceive as a striker. An arnis fighter has intimate knowledge of knife disarms. He has intimate knowledge of the blade. More importantly, he has experience with being cut and the movements that someone will use while wielding a blade. This is not to say that an arnisador is invincible, but he is as good at weapons as the the Brazilians are at ground grappling, which stacks the deck much more in his favor. And an arnisador is a standup fighter and a striker, but not in the terms as you view them.

As far as the sprawl goes, its very effective. You see it all the time in your precious UFC type events. You see it in grappling gyms. More importantly, you see it in wrestling where the shoot originates from. And its a tried and true method of defending the shoot. Its not the sole method of anti grappling, but a time tested one.

And I knew you'd agree with being on your back. You have always been a level headed young brother, so I knew you'd see the folly of that. Now, just because its foolish to commit yourself to a ground grappling situation doesn't mean that putting your knee on your opponents jaw while you snap his elbow is. You aren't compromising your balance. You can still stand at will, run and strike. You can still look around to see what's around you, while taking care of business.

Remember, just because your opponent is on the ground while you work him doesn't mean that you are ground grappling. If you are in control, aware and you can be mobile at will, that's all that matters. Those are three things you sacrifice by engaging in ground grappling situations. While on the ground, you may have control of the man you are grappling, but you've lost control of the situation, and you never for a moment relinquish control for any reason once you have. You cannot address weapons, multiple attackers or plain ole' running in that situation. But then, I know you knew that.

Good debating with you J-Luck. We always have good dialogue. Sorry about the delayed response. Be good.

you need to stop pretending like this entire thread is anything other than the fact that you are afraid of being gay.

now stfu already.

[Uke]

True, but a knife would stop a striker also... so it's irrelevant.

Open handed... naaa, no way to stop it unless your training is superior as a striker than your opponent as a grappler. Remeber, as I said before, a properly executed slam or takedown easily ends the fight.

A simplistic sprawl... come on, you know better than that? That's why you need to learn to grapple to counter grappling. Or at least that's what you're advocating. Who's going to be able to best counter that "simplistic sprawl"? Wanna take a wild guess?

I think you're defnitly right about being on your back in a street fight. Been there, and on pavement too... it's not fun... at all. My back and ribs have been bruised and cut everytime it's happened... Not cool. It's good to know sweeps and other ways of getting off your back because the situation MAY ARRISE. But yes, getting off your back is a good idea... rather, but the other guy on his.

Unless you have trained with the knife, your skills aren't proficient. A standup fighter is not necessarily what you perceive as a striker. An arnis fighter has intimate knowledge of knife disarms. He has intimate knowledge of the blade. More importantly, he has experience with being cut and the movements that someone will use while wielding a blade. This is not to say that an arnisador is invincible, but he is as good at weapons as the the Brazilians are at ground grappling, which stacks the deck much more in his favor. And an arnisador is a standup fighter and a striker, but not in the terms as you view them.

As far as the sprawl goes, its very effective. You see it all the time in your precious UFC type events. You see it in grappling gyms. More importantly, you see it in wrestling where the shoot originates from. And its a tried and true method of defending the shoot. Its not the sole method of anti grappling, but a time tested one.

And I knew you'd agree with being on your back. You have always been a level headed young brother, so I knew you'd see the folly of that. Now, just because its foolish to commit yourself to a ground grappling situation doesn't mean that putting your knee on your opponents jaw while you snap his elbow is. You aren't compromising your balance. You can still stand at will, run and strike. You can still look around to see what's around you, while taking care of business.

Remember, just because your opponent is on the ground while you work him doesn't mean that you are ground grappling. If you are in control, aware and you can be mobile at will, that's all that matters. Those are three things you sacrifice by engaging in ground grappling situations. While on the ground, you may have control of the man you are grappling, but you've lost control of the situation, and you never for a moment relinquish control for any reason once you have. You cannot address weapons, multiple attackers or plain ole' running in that situation. But then, I know you knew that.

Good debating with you J-Luck. We always have good dialogue. Sorry about the delayed response. Be good.

[Uke]

There's a stupid statement.



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LOL!




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Now here comes this idiot who provides the comic relief for the board. Let me guess why you couldn't add one bit of martial knowledge to your posts. Its because you don't have any. I strongly suggest that people click on this morons user name and read the bulk of her posts. She's as useless as her comments.

[Uke]

1. Lol, this post is funny. Kamikaze style... like there is no technique behind takedowns... lol.

2. No one charges as you put it. A shoot can and should be extremly technical, and so should a throw from the clinch. A double leg, when picked up over the should and slammed... will end the fight. Period. Broken spinal column, ribs, arm, leg... internal bleeding, you name it, chances are, they'll have it. You can get knocked out in the UFC with a big takedown/slam... so how much more so devestating do you think pavement,tileflooring, hardwood flooring, concrete, and even grass(hard ground underneath). People fall and break an arm... imagine slamming them from your full height, or at akward angles without breakfalls and protection.

I didn't say there is no technique to a shoot. I said what I said. And that is that its a rushing type attack. A shoot, which is nothing new, just an old fashioned wrestler's shoot, disregards an weapon play. No matter how you do it, if the opponent has a knife and is even remotely athletic and trained, the man doing the shooting just rolled the dice on his life. Now this has to be applied even if no knife had been produced yet as well. Just because a man hasn't shown you his weapon doesn't mean he isn't going to stab you at the first chance. So shooting in, with all of the technique you may think it requires, is still a fool's move in a street altercation. Now if you manage to apply a throw, I'm not saying it won't work. I'm not saying it can't work. I'm saying that if you do manage to get inside and throw, and that's an if, if the man still has fight in him and has a weapon, or buddies who are watching until they feel he's in trouble, you're fcuked. You're now in a ground grappling situation, and you are immobile.

4. I can see why this would be useful. That being said, ground grappling is essential, beacause, plenty(if not most) altercations do not have weapons involved. I'd rather break their arm quickly and get up than waste time trying to negate a whole grappling style, then get up. ESPECIALLY IF HE HAS FRIENDS WITH HIM... this is of course assuming the fight does go to the ground. Even if there is a weapon, all the disarming techniques I've seen with an unarmed person involve writstlocks, arm locks, and such, which is grappling.

I never said that all grappling wasn't suited for urban warfare. I stated that ground grappling wasn't suited for the conditions that exist in the streets. And most altercations do have weapons involved. Most people are cowards and will never fight fair, and so because of that truth SD practitioners will always strike first will lethal intent. You can believe what you want, but more people are carrying than not. Even in prisons, everyone has a weapon. Shanks. Sharpened toothbrushes. Glass shanks. Wooden spikes. No one wants to be in a bout, but everyone wants to win. What's the best way? By stacking the odds in your favor by arming yourself.

I recall you saying that you carry brass knuckles or a metal pipe, J-Luck. Correct me if I'm wrong. But if you feel that what I'm saying is in any way inaccurate, why arm yourself all the time? Ground grappling, like one poster here said, is more like a necessary evil. It exists. It can happen. But the difference in what I'm trying to convey is that just because you've learned the do's and dont's of ground grappling doesn't mean that you have to fight on the ground UNLESS you're taken there by force and you need to use ground grappling knowledge to escape and get back to your feet.

Don't delude yourself. Unless you live in the sticks, people travel in packs. You shoot in on someone, you had better be prepared to get stomped out, young brother.

[jubaji]

Ground and pound is the evolution of those who couldn't grapple at the higher level. .

There's a stupid statement.

MMA fighters can't beat traditional martial artists at striking(K-1), and they can't beat traditional martial artists at ground grappling(Abu Dhabi), .

????????????????????????

I'm always armed..

LOL!

you cannot be aware on the ground. .

????????????????????????

[Uke]

Anti-grappling….

Guns, knives, and ball point pens, as well as biting and an eye gouge, or two, can be a very good friend to the counter grappler. But it is a very good idea to know how to sprawl, pummel, and know how to control a clinch, as well as to get someone off of you in a hurry and back to your feet.

Fights, like it or not, do go to the ground more often than they don’t, what makes the difference is your grappling skills. The one who has grappling skill can and will resist being taken down and is more likely to remain on his feet than those who don’t have any grappling training.

Of course being well versed in grappling would help you know how to negate it. Its not what you know though, its how you use it. A BJJ man would NOT be looking for a way to get back to his feet once he was in his guard or in the mount. He feels comfortable there, like a fish in water. He has conditioned his mind to seek those positions as his training is predicated on achieving those positions. And as I've said a million times before, you'll fight the way you've trained. A well trained man in urban combatives will feel the urgency to escape ANY ground position, whether the position is viewed as superior or inferior by ground grapplers. He knows that laying on the ground means death, and so he fights to regain his footing where he is at home. I've always stated that learning BJJ for the purposes of escaping the guard and mount, reversing holds and chokes and learning the fastest way back to your feet is an intelligent move to make. I am an opponent of the idea that teaches you that it is desireable to be on the ground, mount or guard, side mount or north/south.

As far as fights going to the ground more often than not, I agree. But most self defense situations DO NOT. Any two morons on the street can get into a fight and start rolling on the ground. Any two guys could clinch and trip because they lose their footing. But a trained man, especially one trained in modern SD, keeps his situations short, with fast conclusions.

Overall darrianation, it was a good post. Thanks.

[Uke]

Uke - I have never been a fan of "anti-grappling" becuase it seemed commercial. In my experience WC already had "anti grappling" if you knew where to look. As a wrestler/grappler evry stlye I have studied I have always looked at teh benefit/weakess of that style as related to groundfighting/grappling. I have not studied from Emin or a Leung Ting branch, but good WC knows how to protect thier base (ummmm, err, ummm well I guess except for that WC dude who got his ass beat in ~32 seconds in the early UFC)

Anyway I found this article you may find interesting

http://www.brooklynwt.com/never_wrestle_a_wrestler.htm

Never wrestle a wrestler!
In the days when I gave Wing Chun (WC) and (from 1975 onwards) Wing Tzun (WT) instruction at the Budo Circle in Kiel, I used to end each training session with 15 minutes of ground fighting.
As a teenager I had begun my own martial art carrier with freestyle wrestling followed by Judo, Jiu-Jitsu and Aikido. My uncle instructed me in wrestling techniques, and a neighbor who managed a catch-as-catch-can team occasionally allowed me to appear in the ring as "Keith the Strangler" to supplement my student grant.
The name was highly appropriate, as strangling techniques both standing and on the ground were my specialty. I never lost, and all my victories on the mat or on the street were won with strangleholds. At the time I tipped the scale at 97 kg and was capable of moving up to 200 kg with my arms during daily weight-training. No wonder I never had to apply a stranglehold for long!
Occasionally I would take on up to three opponents on the ground, beating them with a combination of e.g. body-scissors, pressure on particularly vulnerable spots and strangling techniques.
All this had very little or nothing at all to do with Wing Tzun, borrowing strength and giving way, however. My students in Kiel usually ended up frustrated, as they neither had the
years of wrestling experience nor the exceptional strength to copy my example. Some times later I was in for a big surprise when I tried to apply a wrestling hold to my Si-Fu Leung Ting. Using Chi-Sao techniques, he frustrated every attempt to gain a grip from the start. My younger Kung Fu brother, an Iraqi who had also once been a wrestler, weighed more
than 100 kg and was a personal student of the bull-slayer Masutasu Oyama, was equally unsuccessful when he thought he had managed to get the better of Grandmaster
Leung Ting with a semi-serious surprise attack in the form of a bear-hug over the arms - until Sifu Leung Ting`s elbow struck his face, that is.
While abroad years later, when my own Wing Tzun required less and less strength to be effective, I had numerous friendly bouts as well as less-than-amicable encounters with "grapplers" of various kinds. To my amazement and satisfaction they were never really able to get a firm grip. Not once was I obliged to continue the fight on the ground.
Both Sifu Leung Ting and Bruce Lee also won all their fights with punches while standing upright.
WT anti-grappling methods also removed any doubts on the part of those attending an international police training course, who witnessed the almost playful ease with which Grandmaster Leung Ting thwarted a combined "arm lock and throw" attack by a highly-graduated, enormously strong police Jiu-Jitsu instructor, who must have weighted at least 110 kg, by borrowing his strength and turning it against him while already falling. The spectators' breath stood still for several seconds.
When my master student Emin Boztepe challenged and defeated the Yip Man student William Cheung in Cologne in 1986, the fight began in a standing position and ended on the ground, where Emin gained 200% control over the original Yip Man student, who was unable to free himself after falling.
This awakened an interest in ground fighting amongst many, an aspect which is experiencing a resurgence 10 years later, with the less-than-realistic-cage-contests.
In fact the advanced Wing Tzun program has numerous techniques that are quite capable
of taking the fun out of grappling methods.
Although I express the view that wrestlers have significant advantages over boxers and karateka, my faith in Wing Tzun is such that I am sure a good Wing Tzun-fighter who is well-versed in anti-grappling methods will easily frustrate a wrestling attack by means of Chi-Sao reactions plus punches, thrusts and kicks. At the same time we should always call the old motto of Escrima "Never box a boxer, never wrestle a wrestler!".
In order to defeat an experienced wrestler on the ground using wrestling techniques, a
Wing Tzun-follower would need to devote as much time to the dissimilar and strength-intensive sport of wrestling as a wrestler. We are Wing Tzun-people, however, and we neither wish to become wrestlers nor to falsify our Wing Tzun by mixing it with wrestling techniques. And neither is there any reason for doing so.
Let us remember the three distances and weapon types that occur in a real fight, and
which I have described:

1. Long distance (feet)

2. Medium distance (hands)

3. Short distance (elbows, knees, head-butting, grapples, throws)

In this respect the ground fighting may be seen as a continuation of the 3rd distance, possibly as a result of a throw.
This means that a grappler must first get past your kicks to the knees and genitals. To do this he needs first-class footwork to bridge the distance, i.e. up to the standard of a
Wing Tzun-expert.
Secondly he must get past your chain-punches, eye jabs and strikes to the throat. Only a Wing Tzun-expert who has mastered the 3rd form or the wooden dummy techniques can do this systematically.
As a third hurdle, the grappler must also successfully avoid you "clinging arms", elbows and knees in order to apply a hold and execute a throw. Then he must overcome the WT-anti-arm lock and counter throw techniques contained in the three Chi-Gerk programs. By this time I have to conclude that you are not dealing with a normal "grappler", but with a follower of the Wing Tzun system whose nationality (Turkish, Iranian…) gives him a strong affinity for his national sport. Quite obviously you will be unable to cope with someone like this even if you spend two extra sessions each week rolling around the floor. And anyway, this man was only playing cat and mouse with you, for he could have downed you at the
first or second distance.
But seriously, it might make sense for the 200% combat-freaks amongst us, for those who want to measure their prowess in unrealistic cage-contests, to devote 10 additional hours per week to the last and statistically most improbable combat distance while accepting the risk of serious wrestling injuries (just show me one of our ground fighting specialists who has never required a shoulder operation or similar…!).
As Wing Tzun-followers, the rest of us should sensibly do what we are good at, namely
Wing Tzun. Renowned Chinese strategists (e.g. Sun Tsu in "The Art of War") repeatedly point out that a wise general should deploy his troops in such a way that his strength opposes his enemy weakness. This is the very essence of Wing Tzun.
We can only match a wrestler on the ground if we possess the requisite physical strength and talent and devote a disproportionate amount of time and effort to appropriate training. A wise general will select the battlefield and determine the weapons which suit him best, however.
When dealing with a ground fighting specialist we are therefore well-advised to stick to the first two distances and decide the encounter in our favor according to Wing Tzun principles. Our Chi-Sao techniques will frustrate any attempt to gain a hold from the start.
Nonetheless, just in case we do end up on the floor or are surprised in our sleep, we should still be sure to have a few surprises in store for our opponent. In doing so we need have no recourse to extraneous techniques, for in this case too, the Wing Tzun principles offer solutions which require little strength and are in keeping with the Wing Tzun concept. Here too, suppleness combined with elbow and knee techniques is our traditional weapon.
Let us make sure that alien influences do not cause our Wing Tzun ship to stray from its only correct course as defined by the Wing Tzun concept of borrowing the opponent's strength etc. Perhaps then we shall still be practicing Wing Tzun successfully at the age of 80.
In conclusion, let me quote the introductory words of Emin Boztepe during his anti-ground fighting seminar held on October 1995:
"As the 4th and last distance, anti-ground fighting is absolutely the least important aspect of Wing Tzun. In approx. 300 real fights, I have not once been obliged to fight on the ground."

This was an excellent post. Very informative and insightful because you speak from experience, not from theory like jubaji and company. Its easy to spot a poster whose entire education is based on philosophy and circular arguments, but very tiresome to debate with one. Again, great post, IPON.

[Uke]

7r14ngL3Ch0k3

Ground grappling is now called Mixed martial arts? Have you been huffing glue?
But the fighters today are evolved(still evolving), making themselves awesome grapplers, GnPers and stand up strikers who could hold their own Pro competitons like boxing, grappling, bjj, etc., because alot of them have roots in those 'sports'.



Kickboxers and pure grapplers arent exaclty TMAists, theyre still 'players' who train only for competition.
And if you have a knife, why the hell would you go to the ground? If you are an mma fighters, why the hell would you go to the ground?

Why dont you just run away in the first place?

Well its obvious that you wanted to begin the debate by being an asshole.

First, there is nothing new happening today that hasn't already happened. The Gracies have been touting their GJJ decades before the UFC. But they didn't have an event of their own that would favor their style until Rorion came up with the UFC. Today's MMA strikers are no better the yesterday's strikers. If you're comparing them to kickboxers like Bill Wallace and Chuck Norris, then maybe your point would have a chance, but that's it.

People, or should I say uninformed people like you have little exposure to the arts except for what you see on television. Guys new to the game feel as though if you've made it to television, you have to be the cream of the crop. Well that couldn't be further from the truth. Kimo showed us that. A tough guy who works out came in a showed the level of MMA. And there are tons of tougher guys than Kimo out in the world. The UFC hasn't showcased the best talent in the world. Nor does any MMA event. There are men who have trained for decades to hone real survival fighting skills, but now in the last 10 years because of BJJ, you and people like you claim that certain individuals who've only been training for 10-20 years are the best fighters in the world? And they've earned this title from fighting in a sporting event with gloves and rules?

And the reason that I've referred to ground grappling as MMA in my last post was because many posters here who practice BJJ claim that they don't know any ground grapplers that are pure ground grapplers anymore. They claim that everyone is crosstraining. They claim that now that BJJ players have been taking boxing lessons, they are well rounded. Somehow someway, MMA fighters have been taking boxing lessons and muay thai lesson for the last couple of years and believe that they have magically rivaled or surpassed men who have been boxing and doing muay thai for the last 10-20 years.

And BJJ artists are a TMA. Kickboxers mostly have backgrounds in either karate or Muay Thai, which are TMA's. So you should learn a bit before you comment. I'm pretty sure that you don't even know what a TMA is and what separates a TMA from a modern art.

And as far as your reference to going to the ground and using a weapon, I didn't limit it to a grappler or a stand up fighter. The statement applies to everyone. If you are on the ground, even if you have a weapon, it doesn't equalize the fact that you can still be attacked by your attacker's friends. It doesn't change the fact that you are incapable of retreating, attacking or defending against weapons. You've sacrificed mobility for a ground grappling position that has limited most of your tools.

Its obvious that you're either slow or have little education in martial knowledge 7r14ngL3Ch0k3, but what's worse is you're disrespectful because of it when you can't understand simple and basic concepts.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

In the confines of a controlled environment, the GG's, now called MMA's wanted the world to believe that they had proven something by mass producing fighters that start off by thai boxing at lower levels than K-1 fighters, and then ground grapple at less proficiency than BJJ players. Ground and pound is the evolution of those who couldn't grapple at the higher level.

Ground grappling is now called Mixed martial arts? Have you been huffing glue?
But the fighters today are evolved(still evolving), making themselves awesome grapplers, GnPers and stand up strikers who could hold their own Pro competitons like boxing, grappling, bjj, etc., because alot of them have roots in those 'sports'.

But if MMA fighters can't beat traditional martial artists at striking(K-1), and they can't beat traditional martial artists at ground grappling(Abu Dhabi), what chance do they have outside of the rules of their events? Both Muay Thai and BJJ clinch frequently, where a weapons master would kill them as that is his range of proficiency. Urban combatives is all about weapons. This is a maxim of SD. Nearly every one of my masters carried a pistol and an edged weapon. I'm always armed. Every competent SD I know stresses weapons. But even weapons don't make up for unawareness, and you cannot be aware on the ground. Especially on your back. This is another maxim of SD. You may be able to defeat your opponent with a weapon while grappling on the ground, but you won't see his friends coming, and you won't be mobile enough to retreat, attack or defend against their weapons, whether they be steel toe boots, bats or knives.

Kickboxers and pure grapplers arent exaclty TMAists, theyre still 'players' who train only for competition.
And if you have a knife, why the hell would you go to the ground? If you are an mma fighters, why the hell would you go to the ground?

Why dont you just run away in the first place?

[Uke]

Most of the opposition to this logic comes from those who come from training in sport arenas. They feel devalued by the school of thought that says their efforts won't be effective in life or death situations unless conditions are ideal. While the former is true, they should understand that it is less an effort to undermine their efforts and more a case of there being a place for everything and everything in its place.

It seems that the GG(ground grappling) community wants recognition as the best of everything, while the SD community views GG differently. While the SD community has been testing techniques on the streets and battlefields with real results and real casualties, GG wants the same credit for having cage fights with rules, no weapons and padding. While SD instructors have been refining and fine tuning not only techniques, but concepts as police, C.O.'s, security agents, bouncers and gang members, GG players have since adopted the term "crosstraining" from SD in an effort to seem like they were well rounded. The SD community had been crosstraining for decades, but the UFC wanted to pretend that they reinvented the wheel.

In the confines of a controlled environment, the GG's, now called MMA's wanted the world to believe that they had proven something by mass producing fighters that start off by thai boxing at lower levels than K-1 fighters, and then ground grapple at less proficiency than BJJ players. Ground and pound is the evolution of those who couldn't grapple at the higher level.

But all of this is still done in a sports arena. But if MMA fighters can't beat traditional martial artists at striking(K-1), and they can't beat traditional martial artists at ground grappling(Abu Dhabi), what chance do they have outside of the rules of their events? Both Muay Thai and BJJ clinch frequently, where a weapons master would kill them as that is his range of proficiency. Urban combatives is all about weapons. This is a maxim of SD. Nearly every one of my masters carried a pistol and an edged weapon. I'm always armed. Every competent SD I know stresses weapons. But even weapons don't make up for unawareness, and you cannot be aware on the ground. Especially on your back. This is another maxim of SD. You may be able to defeat your opponent with a weapon while grappling on the ground, but you won't see his friends coming, and you won't be mobile enough to retreat, attack or defend against their weapons, whether they be steel toe boots, bats or knives.

So, the next time a GG/MMA's tells you that laying on your back is OK in a street fight, look at him like he's crazy. Because he is.