Anti-Grappling

[jubaji]

Have you experienced anti-grappling? I doubt it. .

No one has, because it doesn't exist. Its a scam to take money from idiots like you who don't know better.

[IPON]

Never wrestle a wrestler!

Uke - I have never been a fan of "anti-grappling" becuase it seemed commercial. In my experience WC already had "anti grappling" if you knew where to look. As a wrestler/grappler evry stlye I have studied I have always looked at teh benefit/weakess of that style as related to groundfighting/grappling. I have not studied from Emin or a Leung Ting branch, but good WC knows how to protect thier base (ummmm, err, ummm well I guess except for that WC dude who got his ass beat in ~32 seconds in the early UFC)

Anyway I found this article you may find interesting

http://www.brooklynwt.com/never_wrestle_a_wrestler.htm

Never wrestle a wrestler!
In the days when I gave Wing Chun (WC) and (from 1975 onwards) Wing Tzun (WT) instruction at the Budo Circle in Kiel, I used to end each training session with 15 minutes of ground fighting.
As a teenager I had begun my own martial art carrier with freestyle wrestling followed by Judo, Jiu-Jitsu and Aikido. My uncle instructed me in wrestling techniques, and a neighbor who managed a catch-as-catch-can team occasionally allowed me to appear in the ring as "Keith the Strangler" to supplement my student grant.
The name was highly appropriate, as strangling techniques both standing and on the ground were my specialty. I never lost, and all my victories on the mat or on the street were won with strangleholds. At the time I tipped the scale at 97 kg and was capable of moving up to 200 kg with my arms during daily weight-training. No wonder I never had to apply a stranglehold for long!
Occasionally I would take on up to three opponents on the ground, beating them with a combination of e.g. body-scissors, pressure on particularly vulnerable spots and strangling techniques.
All this had very little or nothing at all to do with Wing Tzun, borrowing strength and giving way, however. My students in Kiel usually ended up frustrated, as they neither had the
years of wrestling experience nor the exceptional strength to copy my example. Some times later I was in for a big surprise when I tried to apply a wrestling hold to my Si-Fu Leung Ting. Using Chi-Sao techniques, he frustrated every attempt to gain a grip from the start. My younger Kung Fu brother, an Iraqi who had also once been a wrestler, weighed more
than 100 kg and was a personal student of the bull-slayer Masutasu Oyama, was equally unsuccessful when he thought he had managed to get the better of Grandmaster
Leung Ting with a semi-serious surprise attack in the form of a bear-hug over the arms - until Sifu Leung Ting`s elbow struck his face, that is.
While abroad years later, when my own Wing Tzun required less and less strength to be effective, I had numerous friendly bouts as well as less-than-amicable encounters with "grapplers" of various kinds. To my amazement and satisfaction they were never really able to get a firm grip. Not once was I obliged to continue the fight on the ground.
Both Sifu Leung Ting and Bruce Lee also won all their fights with punches while standing upright.
WT anti-grappling methods also removed any doubts on the part of those attending an international police training course, who witnessed the almost playful ease with which Grandmaster Leung Ting thwarted a combined "arm lock and throw" attack by a highly-graduated, enormously strong police Jiu-Jitsu instructor, who must have weighted at least 110 kg, by borrowing his strength and turning it against him while already falling. The spectators' breath stood still for several seconds.
When my master student Emin Boztepe challenged and defeated the Yip Man student William Cheung in Cologne in 1986, the fight began in a standing position and ended on the ground, where Emin gained 200% control over the original Yip Man student, who was unable to free himself after falling.
This awakened an interest in ground fighting amongst many, an aspect which is experiencing a resurgence 10 years later, with the less-than-realistic-cage-contests.
In fact the advanced Wing Tzun program has numerous techniques that are quite capable
of taking the fun out of grappling methods.
Although I express the view that wrestlers have significant advantages over boxers and karateka, my faith in Wing Tzun is such that I am sure a good Wing Tzun-fighter who is well-versed in anti-grappling methods will easily frustrate a wrestling attack by means of Chi-Sao reactions plus punches, thrusts and kicks. At the same time we should always call the old motto of Escrima "Never box a boxer, never wrestle a wrestler!".
In order to defeat an experienced wrestler on the ground using wrestling techniques, a
Wing Tzun-follower would need to devote as much time to the dissimilar and strength-intensive sport of wrestling as a wrestler. We are Wing Tzun-people, however, and we neither wish to become wrestlers nor to falsify our Wing Tzun by mixing it with wrestling techniques. And neither is there any reason for doing so.
Let us remember the three distances and weapon types that occur in a real fight, and
which I have described:

1. Long distance (feet)

2. Medium distance (hands)

3. Short distance (elbows, knees, head-butting, grapples, throws)

In this respect the ground fighting may be seen as a continuation of the 3rd distance, possibly as a result of a throw.
This means that a grappler must first get past your kicks to the knees and genitals. To do this he needs first-class footwork to bridge the distance, i.e. up to the standard of a
Wing Tzun-expert.
Secondly he must get past your chain-punches, eye jabs and strikes to the throat. Only a Wing Tzun-expert who has mastered the 3rd form or the wooden dummy techniques can do this systematically.
As a third hurdle, the grappler must also successfully avoid you "clinging arms", elbows and knees in order to apply a hold and execute a throw. Then he must overcome the WT-anti-arm lock and counter throw techniques contained in the three Chi-Gerk programs. By this time I have to conclude that you are not dealing with a normal "grappler", but with a follower of the Wing Tzun system whose nationality (Turkish, Iranian…) gives him a strong affinity for his national sport. Quite obviously you will be unable to cope with someone like this even if you spend two extra sessions each week rolling around the floor. And anyway, this man was only playing cat and mouse with you, for he could have downed you at the
first or second distance.
But seriously, it might make sense for the 200% combat-freaks amongst us, for those who want to measure their prowess in unrealistic cage-contests, to devote 10 additional hours per week to the last and statistically most improbable combat distance while accepting the risk of serious wrestling injuries (just show me one of our ground fighting specialists who has never required a shoulder operation or similar…!).
As Wing Tzun-followers, the rest of us should sensibly do what we are good at, namely
Wing Tzun. Renowned Chinese strategists (e.g. Sun Tsu in "The Art of War") repeatedly point out that a wise general should deploy his troops in such a way that his strength opposes his enemy weakness. This is the very essence of Wing Tzun.
We can only match a wrestler on the ground if we possess the requisite physical strength and talent and devote a disproportionate amount of time and effort to appropriate training. A wise general will select the battlefield and determine the weapons which suit him best, however.
When dealing with a ground fighting specialist we are therefore well-advised to stick to the first two distances and decide the encounter in our favor according to Wing Tzun principles. Our Chi-Sao techniques will frustrate any attempt to gain a hold from the start.
Nonetheless, just in case we do end up on the floor or are surprised in our sleep, we should still be sure to have a few surprises in store for our opponent. In doing so we need have no recourse to extraneous techniques, for in this case too, the Wing Tzun principles offer solutions which require little strength and are in keeping with the Wing Tzun concept. Here too, suppleness combined with elbow and knee techniques is our traditional weapon.
Let us make sure that alien influences do not cause our Wing Tzun ship to stray from its only correct course as defined by the Wing Tzun concept of borrowing the opponent's strength etc. Perhaps then we shall still be practicing Wing Tzun successfully at the age of 80.
In conclusion, let me quote the introductory words of Emin Boztepe during his anti-ground fighting seminar held on October 1995:
"As the 4th and last distance, anti-ground fighting is absolutely the least important aspect of Wing Tzun. In approx. 300 real fights, I have not once been obliged to fight on the ground."

[IPON]

Empty handed is the WEAKEST position from which to play SD, those who chose to specialize in empty hand for SD dont live in reality.

Boar – of course it is always better to have some type of weapon (better still if you know how to use it, but there is a reason why people train empty hand from Asia to here in the US and I know that you know why. I carry a knife with me, but I also live in NYC if I was stopped for any reason, that knife lands me a night in jail, much less carrying a gun. most empty hand styles also teach weapons, wait I should take that back as most people don't feel weapons training is import to understand their style (please note complete sarcasm)

[IPON]

ah i see what this is really about now. you are another one of those guys whos afraid he may be gay, so he doesnt grapple because it might turn him on too much. surely you can do better than the anti grappling excuse, its already been done before.

I can understand your point a lot of people do put the gay spin on using the guard. But just keep in mind there is a reason why judo de-emphasized the use of the guard many decades ago...counters can leave you crippled or dead.

When I hear people discussing the use of the guard and SD its like oil and water. SD, from the point of (near) physical requires quick and immediate resolution. Pulling guard even when taken to the ground (which if you are a grappler should rarely if ever never happen if its not your wish)…means more time wasted. The goal is to leave, hopefully unharmed or with as little injury as possible. Fighting is machismo, I’ve been there as well as many of you I am sure, I’ve said this many times fighting is not SD (well I have been away for a while so before I was away). Simply put fighting is done by choice SD is done without choice. So with that understanding preparing for a fight and preparing for SD should be seen as very different even though there are parallels.

[darrianation]

The way I look at grappling in self-defense (or combatives) is a necessary evil. Fights go there so you need to have some skills.

Here is a poll given to officers from many different agencies from federal agents, patrol and tactical officers, detectives and corrections personnel, and any other type of sworn law enforcer.

This project measured the frequency in which police officers were forced to the ground by attackers. These were attacks NOT resisting arrest. There were 1,400 cases measured in this poll.

Respondents were asked whether an attacker had ever attempted to force them to the ground. More than half (52%) reported this had occurred, and of that number, 60% reported that their attackers had been successful in taking them down. 52% reported receiving ground control training prior to the event and 40% after.

The majority of incidents occurred during domestic and other disturbance calls, followed by traffic stops. These are the same situations in which the majority of officers are assaulted and killed each year (31% during disturbances, accounting for 15.6% of officer deaths, followed by traffic stops accounting for 15.1% of officer deaths). 45% of the attempts to take the officer down occurred during interviews, 40% occurred at handcuffing, 10% at escort and 5% during booking. The majority of assailants were under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs.

Most attack patterns took the following forms: pushing the officer to the ground (28%), pulling the officer to the ground (33%), tackling the officer to the ground (24%), and kicking or punching the officer to the ground (15%). 64% of the time the attacker continued to assault the officer once it went to the ground, 31% of the time the attacker fled and in 5% of the cases the assailant waited for the officer to get back up to continue the fight.

On the ground, the majority of fights continued with grappling and pinning (77%) and punches and strikes (66%) against the officer. 21% of attackers attempted to disarm the officer, with 5% being successful.

Note: The FBI states that of 594 law enforcement officers killed between 1992 and 2001, 46 were killed with their own weapon.

Non-lethal force was used to counter 95% of the assaults, and 24% of the time this included the sole use of personal weapons (hands, feet, holds, etc.). Intermediate weapons were also used, with OC (pepper) spray being used 29% of the time and impact weapons 26%. Firearms were used in 13 cases (less than 1% of attacks), with three of these resulting in suspect fatality.

In these above assault situations, the bad guy ISN'T trying to get away. This data are from situations where the officer is being attacked. This not mere resisting arrest or the officer trying to control a noncompliant suspect this is where the officer is actually being attacked.

So based on the above attack types and percentages as well as my own experiences, personal and witnessed, when it comes to grappling I begin with the standup grapple. The assumption (and experience) is that our opponent will be trying to close in to push or strike us as we do the same to him this ends up in a fucked up entanglement….A TRAIN WRECK COLLISION.

If we apply an aggressive forward attack (as taught in combatives) many of our opponents will try to grab on mainly for two reasons so he doesn’t get pushed backwards by the onslaught of forward driving pressure and to stop from being hit. Of course in many situations our opponent may try to tackle us from the beginning as well or shoot for the legs (as in double leg takedown).

Yes, this was a poll for police officers but I think that much of this applies to the civilian as well and we can learn a lot from it.

[bigboywasim]

Like many of the others I do not buy this bull anti-grappling crap. Grappling is a part of fighting and should be included in self-defense. A true martial artist will respect grappling.

When you get on the ground you should be able to get up and know how to escape locks and chokes. One on one grappling rules (empty hand). Yes against more than one guy it is not that good but still can be helpful.

A nice throw down a flight of stairs, through a window or a slam on solid ground can cause a world of pain.

[darrianation]

Anti-grappling….

Guns, knives, and ball point pens, as well as biting and an eye gouge, or two, can be a very good friend to the counter grappler. But it is a very good idea to know how to sprawl, pummel, and know how to control a clinch, as well as to get someone off of you in a hurry and back to your feet.

Fights, like it or not, do go to the ground more often than they don’t, what makes the difference is your grappling skills. The one who has grappling skill can and will resist being taken down and is more likely to remain on his feet than those who don’t have any grappling training.

[Uke]

ah i see what this is really about now. you are another one of those guys whos afraid he may be gay, so he doesnt grapple because it might turn him on too much. surely you can do better than the anti grappling excuse, its already been done before.


how do you know this? how long have you trained in grappling and muay thai and how many times have you used them in real situations to come to this conclusion?

So, I have to be afraid to be gay in order to see the guard for what it is? You can try to justify rubbing your manhood up against another man's tubing, but its not for me. If that makes me gay then oh well. And if it makes you more studly to let another man rub his balls on you, then you go ahead. Make it a homophobic issue. Suit yourself. If someone puts you in a triangle choke, and their nutsack in your face doesn't bother you, then bravo. Go on with ya bad self.

Muay Thai is a part of what I've trained in, but that's besides the point. The point here isn't that Muay Thai can't be used to fight in the street. The point here is that if you've been to any boxing gym or Muay Thai gym, you'll see that the way that they train integrates sport habits and mistakes into your brain, so that you'll make the same mistakes when trying to use it for self defense. This off topic so I'll make it short for you. You'll fight how you train and if you are studying muay thai for self defense the first time a weapon is produced you'll fight the same way you've trained. Once adrenaline kicks in, you'll lose fine motor skills, freeze up, and by sheer instinct your brain will FORCE you to go to what it knows as defense. Either you'll begin thai boxing or ground grappling. Don't delude yourself into thinking that because you read some articles or watched some tapes you'll somehow transcend the way you've been trained. The way you practice is the way you'll fight. That's how I know.

And if you can't understand that Jack then you know even less than you let on. The messed up part about this is that I'm not even being arrogant. I just can't let ignorance like yours live on and not say something about it.

[EmptyneSs]

And I can tell you that its much more intelligent to employ anti-grappling than it is to put someone between your legs and hold them there. But this thread was created less to convince people like you and more to inform others of alternatives to having to assume the missionary position in a street altercation.

ah i see what this is really about now. you are another one of those guys whos afraid he may be gay, so he doesnt grapple because it might turn him on too much. surely you can do better than the anti grappling excuse, its already been done before.

And you can believe what you like EmptyneSs, but grappling and muay thai play out like kickboxing with takedowns in the street.

how do you know this? how long have you trained in grappling and muay thai and how many times have you used them in real situations to come to this conclusion?

[Uke]

yawn*

no shit its not a "complete system" by itself, why do you think i crosstrain in different ranges.

i can also tell the difference between sd and sport.

awareness, de escalation, and escaping and all that was common sense to me. didnt need to pay money to know that. plus, this website has given me lots tons of info.

and for when choosing what to train in for sd, i chose mt/boxing and bjj to train in because of the physical attributes it would help me build and skills i could milk from each.

i learned the dirty tricks as well from studying tons of books and websites and this forum, so i keep those in my head as supplements to my training in grappling and striking.

i just chose to train in specific arts because i didnt want to be a jack of all trades, but a master of none. sd is my goal. i would get fma trainig too if it was available here, but its not. the only fma people i met told me their trainng was not for outsiders, even though they were wearing shirts advertising their art

Look, you said you train in Muay Thai and BJJ. My statement stands. I applaud your efforts but I feel I would be remiss if I didn't tell you that you're still training in sports combat instead of practical self defense. If you're using every available resource that you can, the bravo. But if you're picking those two arts because of the shit you read in magazines or on tape, then my man you may want to consider a revamp. But if you feel that you know what you need to know, then so be it.

But before you call something a scam, you should at least know about it intimately and have experience with it. Have you experienced anti-grappling? I doubt it. I have. And I can tell you that its much more intelligent to employ anti-grappling than it is to put someone between your legs and hold them there. But this thread was created less to convince people like you and more to inform others of alternatives to having to assume the missionary position in a street altercation. And you can believe what you like EmptyneSs, but grappling and muay thai play out like kickboxing with takedowns in the street. If you had bothered to read the link I provided you might have understood that.

But to each his own.

[EmptyneSs]

Now, if you're using Thai boxing as a sole source of SD, then you should rethink that as well. Thai boxing is a great component, but not a SD system in itself. If you'd like to see the difference between a sport method and a SD method, click the link and read the top post.

yawn*

no shit its not a "complete system" by itself, why do you think i crosstrain in different ranges.

i can also tell the difference between sd and sport.

awareness, de escalation, and escaping and all that was common sense to me. didnt need to pay money to know that. plus, this website has given me lots tons of info.

and for when choosing what to train in for sd, i chose mt/boxing and bjj to train in because of the physical attributes it would help me build and skills i could milk from each.

i learned the dirty tricks as well from studying tons of books and websites and this forum, so i keep those in my head as supplements to my training in grappling and striking.

i just chose to train in specific arts because i didnt want to be a jack of all trades, but a master of none. sd is my goal. i would get fma trainig too if it was available here, but its not. the only fma people i met told me their trainng was not for outsiders, even though they were wearing shirts advertising their art

[EmptyneSs]

No, I stated that anyone using ground grappling as a sole source of SD would be inclined to close the distance, otherwise he couldn't use his tools. Now, I don't know who you train or spar with, but if you think you're just going to casually walk up to someone once the fight has begun, you're sadly mistaken. A BJJ fighter ground grapples. That's what they do. That's how they win. They focus on the newaza of jujitsu, which is the ground fighting aspect. In order to go to the ground, they have to take it to the ground. No trained person is going to voluntarily got to the ground. So a ground grappler(BJJ) has to close the distance and clinch. Then he has to take you down.

Anti grappling is about using whatever you have to create space and opportunities to get back to your feet. To make matters worse for jubaji's pathetic argument, even BJJ players use a form of anti grappling. When they've been knocked flat and the opponent approaches, they raise their legs off of the ground and kick at the knees and the ankles in order to create space and an opportunity to get up. The Wing Tsun practitioners do something similar, but much more aggressively and more effective. As I stated in my very first post on this topic, anti grappling is a concept more than it is a technique. It is used to create distance between an opponent looking for a grappling opportunity using whatever, however. You can use that distance to strike or to reset position, but the objective is to get back on your feet fast. Being on your feet increases your mobility, the torque in your strikes, your ability to dodge, and most importantly ... your ability to run.

Don't be one of those idiots who accuses me of stating that BJJ is useless just to have an excuse to run off at the mouth. I didn't write it and I never have because I don't feel that way. If you disagree with something I write, tell me about it. But don't be a homo like jubaji just because.

get over the anti grappling nonsense bro, its a wing tzun scam.

[Uke]

EmptyneSs

no, you just misunderstood what i would use grappling for. you assume every person who trains in grappling is going to try to shoot in for a double leg.

No, I stated that anyone using ground grappling as a sole source of SD would be inclined to close the distance, otherwise he couldn't use his tools. Now, I don't know who you train or spar with, but if you think you're just going to casually walk up to someone once the fight has begun, you're sadly mistaken. A BJJ fighter ground grapples. That's what they do. That's how they win. They focus on the newaza of jujitsu, which is the ground fighting aspect. In order to go to the ground, they have to take it to the ground. No trained person is going to voluntarily got to the ground. So a ground grappler(BJJ) has to close the distance and clinch. Then he has to take you down.

Anti grappling is about using whatever you have to create space and opportunities to get back to your feet. To make matters worse for jubaji's pathetic argument, even BJJ players use a form of anti grappling. When they've been knocked flat and the opponent approaches, they raise their legs off of the ground and kick at the knees and the ankles in order to create space and an opportunity to get up. The Wing Tsun practitioners do something similar, but much more aggressively and more effective. As I stated in my very first post on this topic, anti grappling is a concept more than it is a technique. It is used to create distance between an opponent looking for a grappling opportunity using whatever, however. You can use that distance to strike or to reset position, but the objective is to get back on your feet fast. Being on your feet increases your mobility, the torque in your strikes, your ability to dodge, and most importantly ... your ability to run.

Don't be one of those idiots who accuses me of stating that BJJ is useless just to have an excuse to run off at the mouth. I didn't write it and I never have because I don't feel that way. If you disagree with something I write, tell me about it. But don't be a homo like jubaji just because.

[jubaji]

Hey I've slipped during a fight before, anyone whose ever been in one has. slipping and being knocked to the ground do happen, but thats the only the way I'm going to get there.

And that's why you will be nothing but a helpless little bitch when you are faced with someone who has taken that aspect of things more seriously than you.

[EmptyneSs]

No, YOU misunderstand what I've been saying. What you've been saying grappling should be used for is what I've been saying on this forum since I arrived. How you missed that is any one's guess. Your entire argument makes no sense because you've re-written my points in order to argue with me. But if my points are your points, where's the argument? Which is why I previously stated that you need to work on your reading skills. Arguing to argue makes no sense, and that's what you're doing because are points are one and the same.

Now, if you're using Thai boxing as a sole source of SD, then you should rethink that as well. Thai boxing is a great component, but not a SD system in itself. If you'd like to see the difference between a sport method and a SD method, click the link and read the top post.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/s...t=18800&page=4

no, you just misunderstood what i would use grappling for. you assume every person who trains in grappling is going to try to shoot in for a double leg.