Nice safe world we live in...

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

How would you deal with police brutality, The_Judo_Jibboo? I am interested in hearing what you would do if a bunch of cops were beating up your wife with baton because she looked like someone they were looking for? What would you do if it were your son being stunned for simply protesting the war? I'm guessing that there would be a lot of things you would want to do, but what would you actually do? Most people won't speak about it, but in their minds and hearts they privately believe that they would take action.

Hence the line that most won't openly cross.

if cops were beating my wife, son, or anyone else i owed those personal debts of love and loyalty to i would do my very best to take the lives of those officers on the spot. If it were happening to a stranger, i am not sure my fury would outweigh my fear in the same way, but i hope it would.

[SamuraiGuy]

I think the USMC REALLY IS looking for men like you. One of the things that really shines is that the Marines allow the men to make decisions on the fly in the field at the squad level. Most branches have too many chiefs weighing their career in every option you request (which wastes time.)

This is why a GOOD squad leader shouldn't have these behaviors nor should they exist at ALL in his squad...nothing happens the team leader isnt aware of.

If you look out for your men and lead from the front they'll follow you to hell cheering all the way...If you won't go the hard route, why should they?

In simple terms the men WANT to look up to the team leader as well as need to if the unit is going to be combat effective and keep their own casualties down. The unit almost develops a pack mentality if the alpha makes it clear certain behaviors wont be tolerated (and he is respected) they wont exist in that unit. This giving responsibility seems to pay off in people performing well since you allow them to do what you trained them to, and it keeps the bullshit down since people are clearly responsible at even very small levels.

.

Unit, Core, God, Country?

[Uke]

i don't follow that last statement, what's the imaginary line?

The imaginary line is the line you cross once you begin discussing how you'd deal with police brutality. Police in America have a looooong history of racism, bias and disregard for human safety. In almost every instance where a group has openly challenged police brutality we've seen what happened to them. From protesters in that vid link, to Dr King's peaceful non-violent protests.

How would you deal with police brutality, The_Judo_Jibboo? I am interested in hearing what you would do if a bunch of cops were beating up your wife with baton because she looked like someone they were looking for? What would you do if it were your son being stunned for simply protesting the war? I'm guessing that there would be a lot of things you would want to do, but what would you actually do? Most people won't speak about it, but in their minds and hearts they privately believe that they would take action.

Hence the line that most won't openly cross.

[Tom Yum]

HEY! Knock that shit off, I barely manage English...just ask Jubaji.

All jokes aside, Exactly.

I think the USMC REALLY IS looking for men like you. One of the things that really shines is that the Marines allow the men to make decisions on the fly in the field at the squad level. Most branches have too many chiefs weighing their career in every option you request (which wastes time.)

I admire the hell out of the USMC.

A couple of the guys who lead our SEAL pt group were recon and boy they were some tough, hard and motivated fellas and our workouts followed likewise; the mud, the telephone poles, the sandpits. The SEAL guys were different; they gave us the "silent killer" workouts...lol.

The only thing putting a damper on it is money for paying off school loans (its not a copout) I'd like to be able to pay them off through service, ideally coming in as an officer. I don't think they offer this to officers, though.

I am very interested in the Marines chain of command like you've mentioned. There's nothing more rewarding than working in a small group of tightly knit fellas. Plus you can't find anything like espirit de corps brotherhood in the large conventional army, that's a battle-ready mindset that I've been told is lacking in large army from friends who enlisted. Looked at the ground intel officer MOS...leading SS platoons at least from this vantage point sounds like a bad ass job!

What I like about the army is that its well funded and has alot of different jobs; they might be able to help me pay off school loans. On top of that, their equipment, as I've been told, is updated and maintained more so than the USMC. I'm a natural at picking up foreign languages (but haven't taken the DOD language test) - still, I've picked up languages wherever I've travelled and am comfortable learning by mistake and immersion. I love teaching people, but might be a little too old for some of the Ranger stuff. This is where the SF comes in...but I know that there's hell to be paid to get in, even more so than the already balls to the wall USMC.

A ranger once told me that Marines and Rangers are made of solid iron; they're some of the hardest mofos in the valley - but the green berets and SEALs are made of something unearthly...

[BoarSpear]

I'm either looking at becoming the lowest chief possible or a special Indian...we'll see.




Ductus exemplo.

HEY! Knock that shit off, I barely manage English...just ask Jubaji.

All jokes aside, Exactly.

I think the USMC REALLY IS looking for men like you. One of the things that really shines is that the Marines allow the men to make decisions on the fly in the field at the squad level. Most branches have too many chiefs weighing their career in every option you request (which wastes time.)

This is why a GOOD squad leader shouldn't have these behaviors nor should they exist at ALL in his squad...nothing happens the team leader isnt aware of.

If you look out for your men and lead from the front they'll follow you to hell cheering all the way...If you won't go the hard route, why should they?

In simple terms the men WANT to look up to the team leader as well as need to if the unit is going to be combat effective and keep their own casualties down. The unit almost develops a pack mentality if the alpha makes it clear certain behaviors wont be tolerated (and he is respected) they wont exist in that unit. This giving responsibility seems to pay off in people performing well since you allow them to do what you trained them to, and it keeps the bullshit down since people are clearly responsible at even very small levels.

For example I got drunk in a bar with my skipper and went out picking up chicks...neither one of us was aware of the others identity until the next day...he'd been my skipper for 3 years...some commands haven't much control or awareness of their troops movements (he didnt even know the unit was in town).

[Tom Yum]

In the field the indians outnumber the chiefs by a LOOOOONG shot, "management" isn't that tough to deal with, they're terrified of the spotlight over sensitive issues, it might hurt their promotion chances, never mind their life expectancy.

I'm either looking at becoming the lowest chief possible or a special Indian...we'll see.

I havent read it, but "unclear" orders are a common tactic to allow those who want to be promoted to declare they never said do that...unless of course it worked out well and they might get a Medal or promotion.

Thats why a clear moral compass and knowing why you're in the fight is important to the troops...when your Leaders cheat lie and steal from the safety of an air conditioned office how the hell can they expect you to behave honorably in combat?

Ductus exemplo.

[BoarSpear]

You're right there, Boar. And I agree, but damn its hard to disagree with management.

In the field the indians outnumber the chiefs by a LOOOOONG shot, "management" isn't that tough to deal with, they're terrified of the spotlight over sensitive issues, it might hurt their promotion chances, never mind their life expectancy.

Have you read One Bullet Away by Nathaniel Fick. Great book. Very pro-military, but there's a good hint of realism in it as well.

Fick indirectly mentions that he was given instructions that may or may not have held up in the fog of war, causing him to have to make critical decisions.

He's not specific, but he touches the topic.

I'd rather here what's right from an old-timer whose been through and is hella more experienced.

I havent read it, but "unclear" orders are a common tactic to allow those who want to be promoted to declare they never said do that...unless of course it worked out well and they might get a Medal or promotion.

Thats why a clear moral compass and knowing why you're in the fight is important to the troops...when your Leaders cheat lie and steal from the safety of an air conditioned office how the hell can they expect you to behave honorably in combat?

[BoarSpear]

. Guess in some cases you just have to take it square on the chin and in the balls if you wan't to keep your honor...

Honor is the only thing no one else can take from you, you have to make the decision to give it up.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

What it boils down to is that there isn't an effective syetm of checks and balances put in place when it comes to the police. Who polices the police? Internal Affairs? They do little in the scope of things.

There are tons more violent beatings dealt out everyday that you won't find on YouTube. They get away with more shit that they ever are convicted for.

This conversation is a moot one because the minute we begin to discuss how to deal with police violence we've crossed an imaginary line.

i don't follow that last statement, what's the imaginary line?

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Warriorship isn't something that can be grasped or explained easily, but certain things aren't the actions of a warrior and those actions remove you from the category of warrior and bump you to Mercenary or bandit.

Mercenary, yea, that's a better term for the police.

[Tom Yum]

I'd LOVE to see that court Martial...The United States of America Vs Private dudley do right. "Private Do Right refused to rape three small children and shoot them in the head afterwards while their parents watched."

Yeah, I don't think so....so now what, are they gonna raise their weapon to me in the field to enforce this illegal order? I'm armed as well, thats the point, if the troops roll over and LET the command force them to act like scum...they ain't warriors, they're scum like the liar who started it all.

Think about it dude, if you were in a room and people were raping and shooting children to question the parents wouldn't you raise your weapon to stop it? ....Would you shoot the guy from your command who told you to shoot kids or the guy from your command who refused to shoot kids?

You're right there, Boar. And I agree, but damn its hard to disagree with management.

Have you read One Bullet Away by Nathaniel Fick. Great book. Very pro-military, but there's a good hint of realism in it as well.

Fick indirectly mentions that he was given instructions that may or may not have held up in the fog of war, causing him to have to make critical decisions.

He's not specific, but he touches the topic.

I'd rather here what's right from an old-timer whose been through and is hella more experienced.

[Tom Yum]

I'd LOVE to see that court Martial...The United States of America Vs Private dudley do right. "Private Do Right refused to rape three small children and shoot them in the head afterwards while their parents watched."

Then you aint a patriot or a warrior, you're a child molesting, raping scumbag who destroyed the reputation of a great nation and a noble profession.

Thanks for telling the truth, Boar. Even if it means beating me in the face with it and kicking my ass over it.

Lesson learned.

The path that you are talking about is a rare thing today. Every day in the boardrooms across America and even in the White house, people eat or sell out people to keep their career; their livelihood.

Everyone from the garbage man up to the Senate has experienced this decision at some point in their career and acted upon it...I see why you say that being the soldier is the noble profession but I can see how people could make life "harder" for you for not following orders that are illegal...

To gang stab and then eat your colleague is a normal practice in some places, not all the time - a good thing, but it can and does happen. Guess in some cases you just have to take it square on the chin and in the balls if you wan't to keep your honor...

[Uke]

yes, there are many people who believe that way, and i think it has to do with what KOTF and i are discussing. we readily hand over too much trust to police because, well, they're the police!

What it boils down to is that there isn't an effective syetm of checks and balances put in place when it comes to the police. Who polices the police? Internal Affairs? They do little in the scope of things.

There are tons more violent beatings dealt out everyday that you won't find on YouTube. They get away with more shit that they ever are convicted for.

This conversation is a moot one because the minute we begin to discuss how to deal with police violence we've crossed an imaginary line.

[BoarSpear]

I don't doubt that the man in the Ranger vid was a warrior. He went through the training; he was given instructions to rape and pillage...perhaps he did and was just carrying out orders.

If he received those orders they were illegal and he knew it.

If he did not follow his orders, he could have been court martialed, right or other punishment. How does a warrior face a tough decision like this one?

I'd LOVE to see that court Martial...The United States of America Vs Private dudley do right. "Private Do Right refused to rape three small children and shoot them in the head afterwards while their parents watched."

Yeah, I don't think so....so now what, are they gonna raise their weapon to me in the field to enforce this illegal order? I'm armed as well, thats the point, if the troops roll over and LET the command force them to act like scum...they ain't warriors, they're scum like the liar who started it all. Think about it dude, if you were in a room and people were raping and shooting children to question the parents wouldn't you raise your weapon to stop it? ....Would you shoot the guy from your command who told you to shoot kids or the guy from your command who refused to shoot kids?

I think most of us would follow our orders and try to forget what just took place.

Then you aint a patriot or a warrior, you're a child molesting, raping scumbag who destroyed the reputation of a great nation and a noble profession.

[BoarSpear]

Boar, I am intrigued by the definition of a warrior. What is it?

I don't doubt that the man in the Ranger vid was a warrior. He was given instructions to rape and pillage...perhaps he did and was just carrying out orders.

If he did not follow his orders, he could have been court martialed, right.

How does a warrior face a tough decision like this one?

If it had been me, I would have followed my commanding officers orders and never, never spoken of what had happened...not even to my spouse.

Warriorship isn't something that can be grasped or explained easily, but certain things aren't the actions of a warrior and those actions remove you from the category of warrior and bump you to Mercenary or bandit. The number one thing you MUST have to be a warrior is integrity, without that you're a liability at best. You MUST be honest and trustworthy no matter the personal consequences to you...otherwise you are a liability...if you put yourself before your missions completion you aren't doing your job. If fear of losing promotions or your life for telling the truth about ANY action taken in the name of your leader prevents you from being honest you are a liability to the leader and the organization. If lying to protect the truth is expected then you have an obligation to expose this also...you NEVER have to accept an illegal order, if you do so out of fear you are not a warrior...if you break command rules and endanger the command for personal survival you are not a warrior, you're out for yourself and thats a mercenary...you ain't there for the cause or you would be willing to do whatever it took to support the cause, those that break the rules insult everyone else who died while playing by them, your either the good guys or you aren't...your actions define you...live by the sword, die by the sword. It's the very essence of warriorship to recognize you're there to protect the leader and you must not turn the people's hearts and minds against the leadership or it will be the downfall of the leader.