Training for the Street

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Ok, so it's a topic that generates a lot of "discussion" around here, "How do you best train for a street encounter?"

I was just watching a bunch of Kyokushin clips on youtube and pondering this. Kyokushin has most of the standard limitations for a striking sport, plus no punches to the head since they fight bareknuckle. Training within these rules they probably develop a few bad habits that will cause missed opportunities in a street fight, but on the other hand, Kyokushin fighters (just like boxers, Thai boxers etc.) have incredible power and timing, they're tough as nails, and perhaps most importantly they can manage an adrenaline dump.

I guess my specific question is this: It's an obvious trade-off, so is there a line where it is worth it to give up your arsenal of eye-gouges and groin strikes to gain the benefits of sport training? If not, what kind of drills or other training methods do you employ to be sure you will be able to deploy your dirty fighting? The usual argument for sport fighters is that they train exactly the techniques they will deploy in a fight, they know each technique inside and out. How do you reach that level of proficiency for a groin strike short of picking fights with strangers whose procreation chances you care nothing about?

What about a sport fighter who later undertakes that urban combatives training? Are the habits of a Kyokushin blackbelt so ingrained that it would be harder to teach him to deliver a punch to the head or neck than it would be with someone who had no previous martial arts experience?

It's probably coming off sounding like I'm biased towards the sport side, which I really don't intend. It's likely my ignorance of the urban combatives type training that leaves me not being able to picture effective methods. The best I've seen are those full body armor pads that let you wail on a guy any which way you want, but as far as i know those aren't common equipment for a school.

[DickHardman]

inmop the eyegouge/combatives type stuff should be supplemetal to sport training. thats how you can get the best of both worlds. you need a platform/delivery system to better your chances of pulling off those more lethal techniques that cant fuilly be practiced. for example you would use the speed, timing, and accuracy of boxing to be able to parry shots and deliver devastating throat/neck strikes etc. you can use the positioning of jiu jitsus or wrestling to hold a guy down and tear at his eyes or try to break his neck/limb. get the point? not so hard really.

[Tom Yum]

Training for the street

Here's my 0.015 pesetas...

1. Train with dudes who like the same MA's you do AND have also been on the street. When you train and hang out with them, they will tell you some of the stuff they've seen. Most of the dangerous stuff isn't the one on one; the level of violence and intent on the street can go further. How do you know if they've been on the street? They won't openly say it, but you can smell it or see it...

2. Spar/grapple under different circumstances. Go for a long, gruelling run then spar. Work two on one, three on one drills. Get the emotional escalation going - the sense of real danger and intent. Find friends who train and are good actors to pick up the psychological heat! Hell, train from inside of your car if your friends are cool enough to participate. The criminal mind is such that they will choose either a target they perceive to be physically, mentally weak or at a vulnerable moment.

3. Train with weapons. You may have to cross-train to get this.

4. Don't hang out on the street. Avoid bad places. As Mr. Miyagi says, "Best way to fight...not be there"

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

get the point? not so hard really.

lol, yes i do get the point 'cause that's pretty much my thinking on the subject.

[Troll Virus]

Ok, so it's a topic that generates a lot of "discussion" around here, "How do you best train for a street encounter?"

You can't !

[WildWest.]

This is a good question Judo Jibboo.

Your sparring training for the street should contain everything that you may use, including all the dirty techniques. How you deploy these techniques safely during training however is the obvious issue here. This is where you may have to pull techniques i.e. jab at the eyes but not strike the eyes, knee in the groin but stop short, strike for the throat but again stop short. All these should be done when the opening becomes available for them.

I understand there will be those that will argue that its bad training to pull anything because you will fight like you train. However it's a moot point because what you are doing when using these dirty techniques in training is you are conditioning the mind to attack vulnerable targets anyway possible when they become available. This should hopefully force the "I have to obey the rules" mentality sport MA's condition their fighters with out the window. It doesn't mean you can't spar/wrestle hard, because you should, but rather helps you understand and appreciate the no rules scenarios that go with combative training.

[Uke]

Nice post, Judo Jibboo.

Keeping in mind that kyokushin is a TMA that isn't rooted in weapon skills, its hard to call it an urban combative. Most styles of karate and jujitsu in the past 50 years groomed men to be hardcore hand to hand fighters. Many men until this day believe that the measure of a man's prowess comes from his ability to win empty hand.

Of course karate has weapons, and many practitioners with high skills in using them, but if you take a look at how TMA karate was built, those were not the skills that the curriculum were built around. There are few full contact tournaments that allow weapon combat. The majority are forms competitions. And the high level weapon skills don't come until the student has reached mid-ranged black belt level.

I wrote all the above to say that just because kyokushin is hardcore karate doesn't mean that it is more than what it is. The art of the hand and foot.

Personally, I am an admirer of the founder because of his fierce determination and commitment to his pursuit of mastery. He attained a level of conditioning and mastery that to my knowledge hasn't been duplicated since. He is the bar that you should measure kyokushin by. Oyama didn't need a head shot to win a real fight. He could break your ribs with one blow. He could break your arm if you blocked. He could break a man several ways without ever having to attack the head. I'm sure there are students out there who have approached his level, but I haven't heard of one that actually matched it.

If a kyokushin fighter actually reaches or even approaches the level of the founder, he is a weapon. Yes, he will have some habits that don't mesh well with weapon work which is the reality of urban combatives, much in the same way that former kickboxing legends have developed bad habits in the ring but turn to combatives after their career ends.

But, if a kyokushin fighter has put in the time to condition his body in the manner that Oyama did, the way he hits is very different that what most have felt before. 270 fights against other karateka, wrestlers, boxers, judoka, jujitsu and kung fu fighters, and most ended with JUST ONE punch.

IMO, true kyokushin is Oyama's way of commitment to conditioning the human body to the point where having to pick targets no longer matters. Only connecting cleanly.

I guess my specific question is this: It's an obvious trade-off, so is there a line where it is worth it to give up your arsenal of eye-gouges and groin strikes to gain the benefits of sport training? If not, what kind of drills or other training methods do you employ to be sure you will be able to deploy your dirty fighting?

First I think it should be understood that conditioning is usually a choice. Most RBSD schools don't demand that their students get in top physical shape, but they offer programs that are geared towards that end. Its up to the student to take advantage.

Sport TMA styles are competitive, which demands a higher level of athleticism. This is an obvious advantage, but not on exclusive to sport MA. Its just that competition forces competitors to raise their game, while there are RBSD schools that just enforce a strict balance of conditioning and technique.

I'm not sure I'd call what Oyama did a sport. His level of conditioning was meant to end fights, not compete in them. Seeing some kyokushin schools today doesn't reflect what Oyama did and accomplished.

The idea of one hit/one kill really doesn't apply to most schools anymore.

[SamuraiGuy]

Just one thing...

The OP asked if we thought that Kyuoushin guys would start attacking the head if they were given the option, or would they forget to do it because its ingrained in them not to.

Of course they would attack the head if it was the most viable option, using an example of another martial art, everyones favorite (especially in the Urban Combatives section) BJJ, when they start training MMA and are allowed to punch to the head on the ground, they punch to the head on the ground, while they may not be doing it the best way or whatever, they take that option because its there, even if its not a part of their original art.

Seems silly to think that anyone wouldnt attack the head because they've been trained to attack other parts of the body. They might know how to attack other parts of the body, but i'm sure if you got into a street fight with a kyoushin guy and left your chin out there, he'd prolly smack it for you.

[WildWest.]

I'm sure a Kyokushin trained Karateka would punch to the head if the opportunity presented itself too. Everyone, whether you are in MA's or not, knows that the head is a great target to hit.

[Uke]

Granted.

However, a kyokushin is more likely to fight a man using unarmed tactics and rules rather than tactics and techniques that apply to the reality of street violence ala weapons. A kyokushin fighter probably would go for the head. He'd do a lot of things in a fight for his life, but he'd also make a lot a mistakes like using traditional blocks and responses that aren't as effective in a society where guns and blades are the trump cards.

So yeah, the kyokushin fighter would try to aim for the head. I'm sure he could make a target adjustment. But could he fight like capoeira fighter with only kyokushin training? Could he fight like WWII combatives expert with only kyokushin training? Would he respond like a BJJ fighter and pull guard with only kyokushin training?

The answer is still no. You are what you are. You may increase the intensity of your attack. You may add targets in which you will attack. But in the end, you will be what you are, and you are what you've trained in. Even if a kyokushin man was as powerful as Oyama, he would still only be what he's trained in. He would be a kyokushin fighter with immense power.

[Uke]

Looking back though, when the shit hits the fan like in the first couple of UFC's, karate looked like judo which looked like boxing which looked like kung fu which looked like muay thai which ALL looked like toughman brawling.

What does that tell you?

It says that if a man isn't proficient at what he does, it all looks like the same shit on any given day. In the beginning of NHB events, guys didn't know what to expect. They ran off adrenaline and the idea that they might actually get to kick some ass and win some money doing it. We saw ninjitsu, JKD, karate, kung fu, muay thai, savate, and TKD. These guys all started out using their so-called "styles" but like Mike Tyson said: "Everyone has a plan until they get hit". And how true that is!

Once they saw that their "style" wasn't working for them they abandoned what they'd learned and went back to school-yard brawlin'.

Seems to most people that in every instance that happened except for BJJ. And the only reason that it was different there was because the flailing and brawling wasn't happening once you tied someone up on the ground. That doesn't mean that it required any more skill. It just means that there aren't two way brawls from the guard. The guard and mount do a good job of smothering punches and hand strikes, but nothing against a blade. Every good BJJ man would prefer to end a fight quickly IF and I mean IF he could. But we see them consistently flop to the guard once they get hit.

What does all this mean?

It means that whether you're a kyokushin fighter or a BJJ player, you'll fight like you've trained. I'm sure you can try to make some adjustment on the fly, just like Nogueira tries to box guys he can get away with trying it against, and kyokushin fighters may compete in K-1 and hit in the face. But when it all comes down to it, when they get in the thick of it, they'll fall back on the core of what they know.

I recognize the parallels that this debate has to the "MMA lacking RBSD qualities" debate. It seems that this is drifting towards that direction. Seems that some people still want to give a cow balls and call it a bull. Good luck.

[DickHardman]

I recognize the parallels that this debate has to the "MMA lacking RBSD qualities" debate. It seems that this is drifting towards that direction. Seems that some people still want to give a cow balls and call it a bull. Good luck.

lol, here we go again.

[SamuraiGuy]

Dude Uke, bash BJJ all you want or whatever,

But get it out of your head that all BJJ people do when faced with a situation is pull gaurd, its just fucking ridiculous, thats like my saying

"All TKD guys do when faced with a fight is to throw a JUMP SPINNING DRAGON FIRE STORM KICK and proceed to get their ass kicked"

or...

"All WW2 guys do is try to poke people in the eyes"

Its just ridiculous, if you take one small aspect of the art and say everyone is going to do it, its just ridiculous. The only BJJ blackbelt I know yells at people when they pull gaurd from standing, or if they pull gaurd in MMA or something when they have the chance to stand in base.

Its just a ridiculous assumption, stop using it.

[Uke]

I don't believe that I bashed anything.

Excuse me if I don't raise my cup to celebrate everything that you and some others here feel is important.

I have acknowledged that every style/system has worth and effectiveness.

If my opinion isn't to your liking, then don't read what I write or respond to it.

Notice ... I don't usually respond to you? Or on the MMA forum? Or to anything that is written by forum members who never write about the arts, and only offer commentary?

My post on this topic was for judo jibboo, not for every MMA zealot who feels the need to raise the flag and discuss what I feel in the context that they feel comfortable doing it.

Its amazing that after all the debates you'd call that example ridiculous when its demonstrated in nearly EVERY MMA match. Whatever dude. But this isn't about MMA. Its about who would make what adjustment if the need came for it. But making an minor adjustment and fighting like a differently trained man are two different things.

A kyokushin fighter suddenly deciding to punch to the face is alot different than a BJJ player suddenly deciding to fight on his feet against a better striker when his training is solely in BJJ. VERY DIFFERENT. The difference is in moving your punch up about a foot as opposed to fighting completely out of your element.

That was the other point.

[slayer31]

train for the streets and adapt them to the ring if need be.